ID Help Please

[Swattie87]

Just looking for a best guess ID on this guy. Picture was taken in mid November on a Lebanon County freestone stream. They're about a size 16-18 or so. There's quite a bit of them on the stream in question and I generally fish a size 16 or 18 Red Quill if fish are rising to them...would just like to know what it actually is.

Good idea for an additional forum by the way...I plan to learn a lot here.

 

[shortrod]

There are several different species and even families of mayfly that I lump under the name "little blue winged olive". They all have solid grey wings and body can be any where from dark brown to light olive.

I always carry a box of imitations to match this group. The box includes nymphs (pheasant tails and fur bodied), winged wets (some of the species dive to lay eggs), emergers, dry flys, and spinners. All in sizes 18-22.

On rich streams some of the species have three generations per year spring/summer/fall.

A size 18 red quill is an excellent imitation.

If I had to guess, I would say Baetis genus.

 

[pcray1231]

This is a difficult one. I'm thinkin I see a hind wing there. If so, I've narrowed it down to the following:

Family: Ephemerellidae
Genus: Attenella, Drunella, Ephemerella, or Seratella

Family: Leptophlebiidae
Genus: Leptophlebia or Paraleptophlebia

With the November timing, narrowing it down further is difficult. Confused individuals aren't uncommon. But when you say there's a lot of them, do you mean that there's a lot of them in November, or are the better numbers at another time of year?

I wanted to say Baetis genus too like shortrod, based on timing. Our fall BWO's are mostly Baetis. But there's one problem. All bugs in the Baetis genus have 2 tails, not 3. It's one thing for a 3 tailed bug to lose a tail and look like it has only 2, leading to a misidentification. It's quite another to grow an extra one!

 

[wgmiller]

Size and color, size and color, size and color! :-D

 

[dryflyguy]

Because of the 3 tails - I would guess either a blue quill, or one very confused hendrickson

 

[Swattie87]

Thanks for the discussion guys. My initial thought was some type of Baetis as well given the size and the timing, but I am FAR from an expert in these matters and I trust pcray's knowledge on the number of tails.

pcray - I guess "a lot" is a relative term that I should have better quantified. I'd say it's a lot for a small, relatively infertile freestoner, but it's not as if I've ever seen a massive hatch of these guys. They're present to some degree more days than not when I'm on that stream (except for the dead of Winter), and there's enough of them to take notice. There aren't fish rising everywhere in unison to them, but you'll see several get taken on top throughout the day if they're present. It is by far the most prevalent and consistent Mayfly on this stream.

The day in November that I took the picture was probably the highest density of any day I've seen them though...there was a good half dozen on my truck bed when I was packing up to leave. That said, I've seen them in the Spring, Summer, and early Fall too. I probably fish this stream more than any other in the area, but I don't think I've ever noticed this particular bug on any of its neighboring streams...could be wrong though.

Generally with this size and general color I would just assume BWO and tie one on, but when I caught one and got a good look I noticed the reddish/brown tint to the body and thought the Red Quill would be the better imitation.

 

[pcray1231]

Eh, as far as the imitation, size is usually important. But color, not quite as much. I find a number of factors much more important. Stuff like how they emerge, how long they float as duns, and when they will return as spinners. You nail down the species or at least genus, and loads of useful info becomes available. Partially for getting the right imitation. But more for when to target the stream, whether to look for risers in slower or faster water, where to expect the nymphs, etc.

I guess I'm with dryflyguy here. I'm going with a Paralep of some sort (blue quills). The species most commonly associated with blue quills in PA are adoptiva (April time frame) and mollis and guttata (June typically). There are a lot of species though, and several are reported in the fall. For example, troutnut says debilis is locally abundant in the East and occurs mainly in the fall. I've never seen one, nor is there a picture for comparison. Descriptors all fit.

For the entire genus, the nymphs swim to the surface and float a ways, before emerging onto the surface and floating a ways more before taking to the air. Floating nymphs are effective, as are emergers and duns, you kinda have to judge what the fish are doing. Nymphs are crawlers, but unlike most crawlers, are pretty good swimmers and will be found in both fast and slow water. Spinner behavior is species specific.

So if that ID is correct, not a ton can be gleaned from genus specific traits, they're pretty standard mayflies. I'd just point out not to forget about emergers and floating nymphs for them. If you struggle with duns, give it a shot, they might be keying on nymphs just before they emerge.

 

[wsender]

wgmiller wrote:
Size and color, size and color, size and color! :-D

Pretty much. Im just curious, but why do people care. Fish certainly don't. This is an area of study for biologist, not fly fisherman.

Mayfly/Caddis/Stonefly/Other, Size, Color. It's that simple.

 

[Swattie87]

I'd buy that...I looked around on Troutnut and a couple other places a bit, and I think you guys have it pegged...

Leptophlebiidae Paraleptophlebia Adoptiva (Blue Quill) definitely matches my picture pretty closely, and that's good enough for me. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys.

 

[pcray1231]

wsender,

I rank color WAY down on the list. Coming before that:

1. Timing. Are you seeing the beginning or tail end of the hatch per time of year. What about per time of day? Important to know whether or not to stay that extra hour or two, and whether to return in a week.

2. Spinner behavior. Evening, daytime, overnight? How many hours/days after the hatch? Do they drop eggs from the sky and fall somewhere on shore, or do they fall spent? Does it occur over riffles or pools? Cause, when I see a decent hatch, I'm calculating if and when they will fall in mass to meet em.

3. Hatch behavior. Ok, I saw a bug. Some mayflies crawl to shore and emerge there, like a stonefly. Duns and emergers are pretty much useless for them, but swimming nymphs towards banks can be deadly! Some mayflies break out of their shucks on the bottom, "swim" to the surface, struggle to break through, but once they do they're air-borne. For them, you want to leans towards emergers. For others, the nymph swims to the surface and floats just under the film as it emerges. For them, an emerger is less effective than an unweighted nymph fished in the film. And all bugs float for various amounts of time.

4. Specific location. Does the nymph spend it's time in fast, rocky water, or slow, silty water? When you nymph leading up to the hatch, you choose accordingly. And a lot of times they migrate to hatch, say, a slow water nymph will move to the riffles in the days before emergence. Those are the best nymphing hatches, movement exposes them! Does the hatch occur in tailouts, riffles, etc? What about the spinner fall?

I'd rank all of those above color, personally. Armed with that info, some PT's, and an assortment of various Adams ties, I'll take that over having the right "color" every time.

 

[afishinado]

Blue quill likely. Here is pic of Palaleptophlebia debilis.

Link to source: http://www.pbase.com/tmurray74/image/67660936

 

[sandfly]

Ephemerella invaria
http://www.pbase.com/tmurray74/image/113554882
A late season hatch most likely a local phenomenon
took awhile looking at a lot of photos and this is the best one, i blew up the original and saw the second wing pair. Hard to see but they are there.

 

[OldLefty]

While I am personally very reluctant to attempt identification down to species except in the most obvious case, considering what appears as a small elongated hind wing, size, body color and wing color, I would venture that this is a Paraleptophlebia debilis. I've seen this critter on other streams at the same time of the year and I've noticed a slightly lighter body and wing color than what I've found on earlier species. Wings have a slightly cream cast to their dun color.

In my discussions with some of the top entomolgists in the field they will readily admit that in the majority of cases identification down to species level is beyond that which is possible with the naked eye. Without looking at thegenetalia of the image (spinner) under a microscope we're making a best guess. Not my words; theirs.

Dave R.

 

[OldLefty]

Typo error; not image, imago or spinner. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[pcray1231]

Summary:

Old Lefty, afish, dryflyguy, and myself all say Blue Quill, of the Paraleptophlebia genus.

I brought up the species debilis as having been reported as a fall hatch. Afish did me one better and backed it up with a very good picture. Old Lefty did him one better, and backed it up with personal experience. All three of us agree exact species ID is difficult, but stated or implied debilis as a guess.

That's probably about as much consensus as we'll ever get in this forum.

Paraleptophlebia debilis - blue quill

Sandfly is the holdout, suggesting ephemerella invaria, aka PA's standard sulphur. All of the biological markers do fit. Timing doesn't, but he is correct in that local phenomena do happen with that species.

 

[Swattie87]

Yeah, I wasn't looking (or expecting) a consensus opinion by any stretch, but I agree that's pretty close, especially for the crowd that hangs out here! Thanks for the responses guys.

As I mentioned, I throw a size 16-18 Red Quill to imitate it, and do fine with that, but I imagine a host of other flies would do just as well. Follow up question - what would you guys use to imitate it (dun phase) and why? Just think this kind of conversation is fun, especially in mid-January.

 

[pcray1231]

Your picture is a dun. If they are actively hatching, and fish are taking duns, then yes, dun phase.

With a lot of hatches, including this one, the nymphs ride just under the surface as they emerge. On a mountain freestoner, those fish probably aren't being all that picky, and taking nymphs, emergers, and duns as available.

But on some streams they'll get picky and focus in on the nymphs in the surface film, letting floating duns float on by. It's frustrating for the fisherman because you see the dang rises, have the size and color correct, but can't hook up as much as you think you should. It's not that your presenting the dun poorly, or the size or color is a touch off. It's that you should be using an unweighted nymph floated IN the surface film, not on it.

That'd be my biggest word of advice. If you notice a lot of refusals, try floating a nymph. An unweighted pheasant tail of the same size would do the trick, fish it like a dry, unless it's sinking too much, in which case grease the leader.

But so long as it's working. Carry on!

 

[Nymph-O-Maniac]

Photo quality is brutal. Sorry about that. But this was taken in late September 2011 in Dauphin Pa.

 

[brookieaddict]

oops

 

[brookieaddict]

I think its a Pale Morningdun. cathesfishisbythebunchez.