How do they do it? TCO/Orvis

wildtrout2

wildtrout2

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Location
Montgomery County, Pa
I'd love to know how these fly shops stay afloat? It seems almost every time I go into one of these shops, in either Haverford or Bryn Mawr, I'm the only customer in the place. Between rent on the property, utilities, and salaries, I don't see how they draw a profit? Are these companies making most of their money from online sales, and these locations are basically just showrooms?
 
wildtrout2 said:
I'd love to know how these fly shops stay afloat? It seems almost every time I go into one of these shops, in either Haverford or Bryn Mawr, I'm the only customer in the place. Between rent on the property, utilities, and salaries, I don't see how they draw a profit? Are these companies making most of their money from online sales, and these locations are basically just showrooms?
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I needed a rod on short notice a while back from Orvis. They shipped directly from Bryn Mawr (I live in SC PA - left of center), so I've always assumed they use the stores as a bit of a drop-shipping asset.

My neighbor owns an outfitter business. You'd be surprised how much they sell either direct to customer via walk in or through call in orders/sales.

They're an Orvis outfitter. He used to carry Hatch, Abel, Scott, T&T, and some other brands that didn't sell nearly as well as Orvis. Orvis has massive name recognition. I think a lot of sales are to casual shoppers or people new to the sport and Orvis has the benefit of widespread name recognition even outside the fly fishing world.
 
I feel very fortunate to have two fly shops with in 5 miles of where I fly fish in the western Poconos. One is an Orvis shop the other is not. I do my best to support both when I am there. More often than not their parking lots are empty.

I am a very loyal Orvis customer because of their great customer service, but I always buy some flies at the other shop since I am not a fly tier.
 
Every now and they a guy wanders in with credit card in hand told by his wife to go find a hobby. I've been stuck in line behind one of these as every employee in the shop piles up gear at the register. When it rains....
 
wildtrout2 said:
Are these companies making most of their money from online sales, and these locations are basically just showrooms?
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Many brands require a brick and mortar location before they will allow a retailer to carry their products. So if you want to sell them online, you need a physical retail location first. They often also require you to be a certain distance from other shops also carrying their brand. So in order to offer all the big brands online, you may also need a second location that can stock that particular brand in-store.

I have no idea how TCO functions, nor do I pretend to, Just pointing out some possibilities.
 
The 2 Orvis locations I frequent are located in populated retail locations that receive much foot traffic. They are mainly clothing/lifestyle stores with a fly shop attached. Customer service is excellent and they’ll order anything for you and direct ship to home for free.
 
I often wonder the same thing. My closet orvis shop is a vastly overpriced clothing boutique that might have a handful of rods and a half dozen fly tying materials. I’m not sure why it’s called a fly fishing store. I haven’t been in there in years and I’ve never purchased a thing in there.
 
I've been fortunate in having an Orvis store close to home these past 20 years. I only started fly fishing in January 2021, but over the years I've bought 3 pairs of waders and 3 pairs of wading boots from them, plus a few assorted flies & fly boxes, not to mention odds & ends related to fishing. It too had a lot more space devoted to clothing & other items - can you say Yeti? - than fly fishing stuff, although they had a good selection of fly rods & reels, leaders, tippets, etc. Unfortunately, they're going out of business, and I'm going to miss them. Fortunately there is still a fly fishing only fly shop located about 20 minutes away.
 
Tony G. has done a great job in expanding a business in an industry that is, besides not being very good, has consolodated many locations into on-line sales. Holding events like 'brews and bugs' (or what ever) gets traffic, forms relations and keeps that specific shop in people's minds. He runs trips to exotic locations. One thing people who live in many 'destination' areas is that the stores that sell stuff to people who DO the thing where they live are far away from the PLACE those things are done. (NW PA went from 2 fly shops to zero (basically) and I am not aware of any interest in changing that.). TCOs are located in the affluent S.E. and Center County regions of PA; where the money is, and has a strong internet presence. They also host fishing guides, which is a scalable enterprise. The fly shop acts as a dispatcher and accountant with no or not much additional investment beyond what they already do. That's how so many Western fly shops do OK. They take a share of $500 boat rides on destination rivers.
And TCO does it well. Some aren't as good. I've seen a favorite fly shop in Missoula go down-hill from what I can only guess is new, bad owners.
Or it may just be a money laundering scheme for human traffickers and selling real estate to Russian and Chinese oligarchs.
Yeah, probably that.
 
Old joke: How do you get $1 million out of a fly shop? Put $2 million in.

Post above mirrors the view of a successful fly shop owner I know. He said you either have to be near the fishing or near the money. He opted for near the money since the fishing is seasonal and people with money spend it all year.
 
TCO thrive on their culture. I often go in there any time I’m close or just have a little extra money just to chat or whatever.
 
Large profit margins help with the bottom line - that $900 rod you want costs the dealer about half of the enforced retail pricing scheme - often built on a Chinese blank with less than $100 in true unit cost - prices go up, quality goes down (remember Struble reel seats?) Fly shops deal to the carriage trade and depend on regulars and newcomers alike. The Sam Walton model of business (turn more product at smaller margins) doesn’t apply here. It’s the old “truckload of dollars vs. trainload of dimes” scenario. Soft goods such as clothing and brand name coasters also help IF they sell in volume. The biggest and most dependable profit margins are in tippet material, hooks, SOME fly tying materials, and terminal tackle. The more you buy as a dealer, the more discounted your dealer cost - and bigger margins. Cardinal rule in retail: YOU MUST SELL THE WHOLE SHOP at least twice per year - anything sitting COSTS YOU MONEY. When you buy the goods on a credit program and don’t pay in advance, you can’t liquidate when models change appearance or are updated - a sure fire way to lose the business. Pro shop (buying into the program) status isn’t designed to make the shop “rich” - it’s designed for brand recognition with the parent company benefitting most - and it does require astute brand knowledge, salesmanship, knowing your local waters intimately, and proper application of knowing the customer’s needs. A person has to be a little crazy to even consider opening a fly shop. I was in the business once … and watched a 40 year old established business crumble and disintegrate after new owners made poor credit choices. All the staff got screwed and untold years of our practical experience and knowledge was literally thrown out the window - good times - I went active duty not long after and retired after 30 years service - attempted a return to the business 6 years ago and pulled that plug last year after seeing nothing but greed, competition, and desire for notoriety driving the sport now. End of rant - see you on the stream!
 
use2wuz said:
Large profit margins help with the bottom line - that $900 rod you want costs the dealer about half of the enforced retail pricing scheme - often built on a Chinese.
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Which rod brand is charging $900 for a rod built on a Chinese blank? If you can name two I'll let the "often" slide.
 
PennKev said:
Which rod brand is charging $900 for a rod built on a Chinese blank? If you can name two I'll let the "often" slide.
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Ok - fair dinkum - so change the “often” to “sometimes” and the $900 to $350-500 (the “affordable series” type stuff). I think we can agree that many quality rods are NOT on American made blanks anymore - the 80’s brought us much cheaper decent quality blanks from Taiwan/China along with quality Korean reels too - back in the day, a lot of the great rod designers and graphite pioneers were one time Boeing employees in the Seattle area - they had the tech specs on all the new fibers and resins - Fenwick, Sage, and Loomis can trace their lineage as such. Just for the record, I own and fish quite a few Chinese built rods and Korean reels with no issue - the same companies like Leichi and Okuma build for all the major brands here in the US.
 
use2wuz said:
Ok - fair dinkum - so change the “often” to “sometimes” and the $900 to $350-500 (the “affordable series” type stuff). I think we can agree that many quality rods are NOT on American made blanks anymore - the 80’s brought us much cheaper decent quality blanks from Taiwan/China along with quality Korean reels too - back in the day, a lot of the great rod designers and graphite pioneers were one time Boeing employees in the Seattle area - they had the tech specs on all the new fibers and resins - Fenwick, Sage, and Loomis can trace their lineage as such. Just for the record, I own and fish quite a few Chinese built rods and Korean reels with no issue - the same companies like Leichi and Okuma build for all the major brands here in the US.
Click to expand...
Ok, now that's pretty accurate.

I'm not disputing the current quality/utility of foreign made gear. I've built many a rod on cheap-o foreign made blanks and almost all have turned out adequate, if not downright good or evenexcellent in terms of performance. There are still some duds out there but as I've stated on this forum before, I would have killed to have the current quality of budget gear available when I was younger and poorer.
 
PennKev said:
Ok, now that's pretty accurate.

I'm not disputing the current quality/utility of foreign made gear. I've built many a rod on cheap-o foreign made blanks and almost all have turned out adequate, if not downright good or evenexcellent in terms of performance. There are still some duds out there but as I've stated on this forum before, I would have killed to have the current quality of budget gear available when I was younger and poorer.
Click to expand...
Is Lamiglas still in business?
 
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