HomeWaters Club- different name, same agenda

[JackM]

Well, as I said, they know exactly what they are doing and that is paying to keep away from us-- even those with some talent.

 

[JustFish]

MKern wrote:
They are big city lawers, doctors, and congressmen who have more money than skill.

They don't care about the "little guy" and just want trophy pictures to show their office buddies.

It's all about being part of an elite club. What sport is more elite than fly fishing (polo maybe; but who plays that anymore).

I know a guy who fishes there every year, gets in with a friend, he is a good fly angler. I don't know why he goes though.

This explanation that makes sense to me.

It's not about the best trout waters, it's about the "ELITE" status they get for being in this club. It's the same reason why my filthy rich Uncle buys $900,000 dollar town homes on golf courses here and in Florida with a private club. He's "JO" by the way(It's not hard to figure out the abrv). He does it so he can hang out with other "JO's" like himself. He feels like he is above people and doesn't have to mix with the "little guy."


Then when the club brings in a household name like Lefty Kreh or Joe Humphrey's the club members now have one more thing to brag about. They can get a picture for their office with Lefty Kreh in the water with them stream side. Then when the VP of operations that fly fishes in Europe comes to town He can then take him to his "Elite" club and have wine and cheese stream side while they play grab *** with each other.

It's about status not good water.

 

[RyanR]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:

Jack, I've been able to talk with a few of DB's guides several different times, (even though it usually involves them yelling at me, but sometimes it is civil). One guide said that over a one month period he had to take out 10 different sports, and only 1 knew what they were doing. If these people were better flyfishers they would go somewhere else and fish, probably somewhere else that also costs several thousand dollars. DB isn't the only guy with lots of private water.

Your right in concept but for the wrong reason.

I have had about 4 chances to fish Homewater/Spring Ridge or what ever they call themselves today streams. 2 of which I have took the offer on. What I have found is that those streams are NO better than the ones we get to fish for free with loads of public access. 1 of the streams had no pellet head stockers put in and had plenty of wild fish. The other was not the same and had loads of large stocked fish with a mix of wild fish. I can fish over large pellet heads with some wild trout in plenty of places in PA for free. I can fish in about 10,000 miles of wild trout water for free in PA.

Frankly what I discovered about Spring Ridge water I have fished is that it is far inferior to PA's best wild trout streams by a large margin. A LARGE MARGIN.

So your right, if the members of Homewaters were better flyfishers they would go else where and fish, but they would know they dont need to spend several thousand to do so.

That is unless you consider food, gas, equipment and of course beer

ELITIST! Everyone, new candidate for tar and feathering. :-D

 

[jdaddy]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:

I actually read that entire thing and am no more enlightened as to the cause of people transfering their hatred of this particular club to the persons who utilize its properties so as to conclude that such members are somehow incapable of any fishing success outside of club waters.

Simple. These people got rich by being smart. Making good decisions about college, money, investments and others alike. 100,000 dollars to fish PA. Bad choice. Stick to stocks ...obviously know nothing about fishing and bought into DB's lies. Period.

Last time I checked it was $60,000. A lot of these guys are probably writing these fees off a business expense. Though entertainment expenses are not fully deductible, it certainly makes the outlay more attractive. Also, the fractional shares you are buying can be sold, so it's not like the $60,000 is out the window. Granted, I think membership has to be full to resell ones fractional share and I understand that has not happened to date.

I'm just saying, until you know the entire story I wouldn't **** on their business decisions.

Now here is the ultimate burn imo. HWC members only have limited number of days per year on the water. And they have to be scheduled in advance. For example the $60,000 plan is a $60,000 fractional share plus $10,000 annual fee for TWENTY ONE DAYS!

As I have said before, I would rather invest the $70,000 and withdraw $5 - 10,000 a year for a couple of week long trips to Argentina, Montana, Canada, etc.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

As I have said before, I would rather invest the $70,000 and withdraw $5 - 10,000 a year for a couple of week long trips to Argentina, Montana, Canada, etc.

Which was my point.

I'm just saying, until you know the entire story I wouldn't **** on their business decisions.

See above, drink more beer, point, aim...fire ;-)

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

Amount of money Jake spends on a typical all day long fly fishing outing:

Flies - $10 - $20 Only if I really need a certain pattern

Gas - $20

Food - $5 -$10

Beer - $5 -$10


Total cost $40 -$60. And that is on the high side.

I can manage a decent outing and spend only $10 if I already have a half tank of gas.

Knowing that I don't need someone to tell me how to cast, tie my leaders, and tell me where the fish might be hiding,

----PRICELESS----

 

[odtfish]

I posted this a while ago. I did have a chance to fish with someone who was a star on Spring Ridge waters.

http://www.paflyfish.com/modules/newbb/makepdf.php

 

[odtfish]

http://www.paflyfish.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10029&forum=2&post_id=123217#forumpost123217

 

[JackM]

I didn't remember that anecdote from so long ago, but I bet your buddy would rather fish Spruce Creek than Valley. Sounds like his guide on Spruce put him on some big fish, whereas when you guided him on Valley, you both came up empty. Anyhow, I am certain that the majority of Home Waters / Spring Ridge patrons are sufficiently skilled to catch trout in wild streams, even on those as reputedly difficult as Valley.

As along other socio-economic strata, there are some spending their money for privacy, status, ammenities, etc., but why not joining a Country Club with a golf course? Most of these guys like to FF. Surely mixed in are some poseurs, but it is likely a small minority. Just my opinion, as I am not of that ilk.

 

[afishinado]

JackM wrote:
I didn't remember that anecdote from so long ago, but I bet your buddy would rather fish Spruce Creek than Valley. Sounds like his guide on Spruce put him on some big fish, whereas when you guided him on Valley, you both came up empty. Anyhow, I am certain that the majority of Home Waters / Spring Ridge patrons are sufficiently skilled to catch trout in wild streams, even on those as reputedly difficult as Valley.

As along other socio-economic strata, there are some spending their money for privacy, status, ammenities, etc., but why not joining a Country Club with a golf course? Most of these guys like to FF. Surely mixed in are some poseurs, but it is likely a small minority. Just my opinion, as I am not of that ilk.

Jack,

The Homewaters homewaters are often stocked to the "gills" with large fish way beyond the normal carrying capacity of the stream. They are often fed pellets to supplement the natural food and to keep them from moving out of the private section. There are established "beats" (stream sections) that are "rested" (no fishing allowed) for days, a week, or more. When the "angler" and his guide get there, it's like the first day of trout season.....without all the people....Hee-ha! Not much of a sport IMO.

Question, if you won the lottery and money was no object, would you join such a club? I surely wouldn't....

BTW, I've fished Spruce in a private section (one time ...never again!) and often fish Valley Creek. No contest...catching one fish on Valley is much more rewarding than catching a bunch of hogs in Spruce.

To me, the challenge of FFing is a big part of why I enjoy to fish. It's not really about hauling in the hogs one after another...that gets boring. Fooling some tough (wild) fish in their natural surroundings gives me a lot more satisfaction.

 

[afishinado]

Don't forget, Donny Beaver's earlier business was a Kill-for-Cash game farm where deer and exotic animals were stocked in a fenced-in area and shot by all those "sportsmen" with enough cash to pay for their "trophy". With Spring Ridge (now "Homewaters"), DB just added water and fish to the equation..........IMHO.

 

[JackM]

Did the bullet still have to hit the beast? Are all those preserve-game hunters poor shots? I have no problem people not wanting to fish artificially enhanced fisheries, but let's not kid ourselves how often some of us do. I have a lot of reasons to be jealous of, angry at, and ashamed of our super-wealthy, but disputing their fishing prowess isn't on my agenda. Nor do I think it is a winning argument if the truth be known.

If money were no object, I would probably not join an exclusive club like Home Waters. But, I may pay for private access through a guide for instance on some of the great waters in the US that do not need to be enhanced to provide a wonderful fishing experience.

I would bet that during Little J hatches, some of those alleged pellet hogs rise to the surface to take a #12 cahill and I wouldn't mind being someone's guest on these private stretches or even just wading up in the water to catch a few. Lefty or Ed, is you're listening and looking for a partner for your next scheduled visit give me a ring [*** holds hand with pinky and thumb extended near right-hand side of face***].

 

[afishinado]

The challenge........fair chase........sportsmanship.

Instant gratification.......elitism........self-delusion.

 

[DGC]

"Instant gratification.......elitism........self-delusion."

I agree. If they are as successful and talented as their ability to pay implies, they should want to be informed so as not to be duped. Opprobrium is warranted. odtfish's vignette is evidence that what his neighbor thought he was getting in pay-to-play was phony. Learning this may have been embarrassing, but a good lesson nevertheless.

Even after a few years of forum discussion of this topic, I was not aware of some of the "setups" afishinado mentioned in posts 30 and 31. Pay-to-play there is even worse than I thought.

 

[franklin]

Donny put some of those big rainbows in Elk at Coburn the first year he bought the house there. People caught them as far down as Poe Paddy. I haven't heard of him putting in any since. I don't think they stayed in place.

 

[pcray1231]

Did the bullet still have to hit the beast? Are all those preserve-game hunters poor shots?

Being a good shot is a small part of being a good hunter. Not to say it doesn't help, but its only one of many things that have to come together to be successful. Knowing where and when, maintaining proper concentration, proper approach to likely spots to put yourself in good position, etc. If you're taking a reasonably makable shot, 95% of the job is done and done well, but that shot can still make or break the hunt.

It's much the same as fishing. It'd be like saying that a good caster is a good fisherman. It certainly is a part of the game and contributes to being a good fishermen. But a good caster who's bad at everything else is still a bad fisherman, and a bad caster who is good at everything else can be fairly successful.

 

[JackM]

So do you think that good fly anglers would not catch more and bigger fish on the pellethead populated private waters than poor fly anglers would? Do you think that such good fly anglers would be out of their league on non-pellethead-stocked waters? Some assume the latter and I think it is a ridiculous and perverse assumption.

 

[pcray1231]

So do you think that good fly anglers would not catch more and bigger fish on the pellethead populated private waters than poor fly anglers would?

I think the differences between the good anglers and the bad would be less distinct.

Do you think that such good fly anglers would be out of their league on non-pellethead-stocked waters?

Don't really understand the question. I'm saying all anglers can look good on the pellethead stocked waters, thus making it difficult to tell the good from the bad. Go to non-pellethead-stocked waters, and the differences will become more obvious.

I am not saying that there's no such thing as a good angler on Beaver's waters. I'm sure there's a mix of good and bad anglers the same as anywhere else. However, it's not till you get off of his waters that you can tell the difference. And for the ones who ONLY fish his pellethead stocked waters, they probably are among the bad anglers for several reasons. 1. They've never challenged themselves. You get to be good by fishing difficult waters, and if they never did that, they never gained the knowledge and skills necessary to tackle more difficult circumstances. And 2. Perhaps they pay and routinely fish Beaver's waters because they've failed to succeed elsewhere.

I will not say that all of his club members are among that group. There may be some fine anglers who routinely fish other streams, and are only members of the club for social reasons, to give their kids an easy place to fish, and/or because they bought his environmental marketing.

 

[odtfish]

Jack, I didn't realize I was guiding my neighbor, I thought he was the much more experienced fisherman. I figured he would be guiding me.

 

[JackM]

od, your storyline just presented that little remark as "too easy," I recognized the truth of what you related. As pcray says above, there are good and bad anglers using Donnie's club for refuge from the unwashed. But I would be willing to say that most of them joined because they like to FF, and have probably fished many of the waters you consider so much more difficult. They may very well be much more accomplished than the best among us.

Again, I can find many things to complain about regarding Home Waters, but the skill of their patrons is just a really weak thing to focus on.