Holy gas wells Batman!!
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salvelinusfontinalis
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This thread has become ridiculous.
Gudgeonville
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We are not drinking frac fluid! No frac fluids are getting into the water supply! That is what I am trying to get across in my posts. Missy insists that drilling is going to cause endocrine disruptions, etc! There is no indication or proof that it gets anywhere near your water supply. It's all "what if"! What if all of the gasoline tanks at gas stations all over the state were leaking product into the aquifers! Oh wait, that already happened. That is much more plausible than frac fluids getting into any aquifer.
There have been very few spills or accidents associated with this industry. The one that did get some very diluted frac water in a stream did not even have any effect on the stream. (Chesapeake in the northeast part of the state) The issue in Black Moshannon sprayed some flowback onto the ground and probably killed some grass and trees, but, no long term effect on any body of water or aquifer.
I'm not looking to change the world here, most fears of water contamination are not happening. I can understand bikers disdain for the industry, he just doesn't like heavy industry moving into rural areas and such. Perfectly understandable. But claiming that fracing is killing all known life in PA is ridiculous and a scare tactic being used by antis to stop all drilling in the commonwealth.
There have been very few spills or accidents associated with this industry. The one that did get some very diluted frac water in a stream did not even have any effect on the stream. (Chesapeake in the northeast part of the state) The issue in Black Moshannon sprayed some flowback onto the ground and probably killed some grass and trees, but, no long term effect on any body of water or aquifer.
I'm not looking to change the world here, most fears of water contamination are not happening. I can understand bikers disdain for the industry, he just doesn't like heavy industry moving into rural areas and such. Perfectly understandable. But claiming that fracing is killing all known life in PA is ridiculous and a scare tactic being used by antis to stop all drilling in the commonwealth.
salvelinusfontinalis
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LoL!
ill let you guys post the links about lawsuits. I'm going fishing.
ill let you guys post the links about lawsuits. I'm going fishing.
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Me too, Sal! Good luck.
pcray1231
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Gudgeonville,
Agree on the drilling side. Takes an accident for it to happen. Accidents do happen, but there are chemicals all over the place that the same can be said.
But look more into disposal. I know things are changing somewhat for the better, with more recycling of water and injection wells. But for a while, maybe even now, a lot was being disposed at sewage treatment facilities. They were fine at removing some contaminants, but many others they could not remove, and they went at it with dilution before releasing into the rivers. All fine and good on a small scale, but with a large number of plants along the same waterways it was adding up above allowable concentrations.
Agree on the drilling side. Takes an accident for it to happen. Accidents do happen, but there are chemicals all over the place that the same can be said.
But look more into disposal. I know things are changing somewhat for the better, with more recycling of water and injection wells. But for a while, maybe even now, a lot was being disposed at sewage treatment facilities. They were fine at removing some contaminants, but many others they could not remove, and they went at it with dilution before releasing into the rivers. All fine and good on a small scale, but with a large number of plants along the same waterways it was adding up above allowable concentrations.
Ah, the good old "strawman" argument. Always a favorite.
We had the "guilt by association" ploy just a short while ago. (The whole thing about the radical socialists, etc.)
This website has a lot of info on fallacious arguments:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
Selfinflictedfunk
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If fracking doesn't cause harm then why did the industry get specific exclusion (thanks **** and Bush) from the Safe Water Drinking Act? Why are they shipping water to peoples homes and installing filtration systems....per court settlements?....that then put a gag order on the home owners so they can never discuss it? Why are towns in my county having problems with their getting their drinking water treated for trihalomethanes, that are being dumped upstream?....this is after being treated, as pcray pointed out, in a treatment plants not able to properly treat it?
http://www.wtae.com/team4/28623580/detail.html
http://www.wtae.com/team4/28827499/detail.html
franklin
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I don't think THMs are being dumped upstream. I think they are byproducts of the chlorination process used to treat the drinking water. As I understand it THMs can result from both natural or man made substances in the source water.
If you take a gallon of water from any large stream (and many small streams) in the world you will find some amount of a "cancer causing" substance. The question is what is the concentration?
To my knowledge no untreated frack waste water was legally dumped into Pennsylvania streams as an industry practice. It was run through treatment plants which in many cases had poor capability to filter out much of the critical materials. Still it was diluted below acceptable federal and state health levels. As Pcray pointed out there was accumulation of some concentrations slightly above acceptable levels that was monitored in rivers. Those standards are set at orders of magnitude less than what is considered statistically measurable health impact. Even so the state has added additional requirements on disposal in the past few months.
pcray1231
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Yeah, it was a chlorination effect, but one that is a reaction with chemicals put there by frac fluids.
Now, keep in mind that these sewage treatment facilities had been handling frac water in the same way for decades, as shallow wells are also frac'd using the same stuff. So, concentration limits were set at the outflows, and measured at the outflows, to limit the concentration in the rivers to below the set limits for safe consumption downstream.
When Marcellus came along, the same limits were held, and every plant held their outflow under the limit as designed. All fine and dandy, right? Wrong. The volumes were cumalatively higher. So, for instance, it used to be that a given plant might send out frac water at the designed limit 10% of the time, and now they were doing it 80% of the time (made up numbers to make a point). So overall, you've got more plants dumping wastewater, within limits, into the river at any given time, and cumalitive effects were to raise the concentration in the rivers considerably. Well beyond what was originally intended by those limits, and also above safe levels.
So the answer seems to have been to recycle more water, and when you do get rid of it, do it in injection wells. That should help, we'll see. These are the type of problems that pop up. They did, and are being dealt with. But without vigilance and heavy monitoring, we might never have even noticed it, we'd still be happily testing the outflows only and saying "all is well" while our people are getting sick. Instead, some concerned agency said "lets test the river instead of the wastewater outflow". So while I don't demonize the gas industry, I do fully support full monitoring in scientific manner.
Selfinflictedfunk
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I stated this "this is after being treated, as pcray pointed out, in a treatment plants not able to properly treat it?" So I'm aware of that this is post treatment and the cause of the THMs. This is straight from the article I linked to
"The head of the Beaver Falls water authority declined to talk on camera, but he told Van Osdol their problems were aggravated by the release of gas industry wastewater, also known as frack water, eighteen miles upstream from the treatment plant. He says the authority is changing treatment procedures to address the problem. Earlier this year, the state told the gas industry to stop dumping frack water into rivers."
So, YES, untreated frac water was being dumped in our rivers.
Any insight as to why the gag orders or the exemptions...which was the point of my post.
salvelinusfontinalis
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I have my guesses 🙂
All I'm trying to say is if someone on here gets upset, takes offense, feels slighted, or just plain insulted by some of Drill Now support don't be surprised. Many people on this forum and friends of forum members have pour blood, tears and sweat into streams in the state.
They have reason to feel suspicious from the start and angry in the end if an "accident" happens, but all is well. According to this thread soon we will be able to enjoy A Big Frack w/ Frack Fries @ McDonalds and the rinse with some Listerine (New Boric Acid flavored) fortified with Potassium Chloride!
Fishing was good how about you afish?
All I'm trying to say is if someone on here gets upset, takes offense, feels slighted, or just plain insulted by some of Drill Now support don't be surprised. Many people on this forum and friends of forum members have pour blood, tears and sweat into streams in the state.
They have reason to feel suspicious from the start and angry in the end if an "accident" happens, but all is well. According to this thread soon we will be able to enjoy A Big Frack w/ Frack Fries @ McDonalds and the rinse with some Listerine (New Boric Acid flavored) fortified with Potassium Chloride!
Fishing was good how about you afish?
franklin
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18 miles upstream is the New Castle Sanitation Authority facility. This is the source the Beaver Falls representative is alluding to. New Castle was one of the facilities that was handling frack fluid but had insufficient capability to treat the waste adequately. This is not dumping. Dumping is releasing full concentrated materials into a waterway (illegal) straight from the well site. Doing that would likely be immediately harmful to the environment and a much more serious health risk to humans.
Franklin,
Honestly, I don't drink milkshakes from fast food restaurants. I do like ColdStone Creamery though...
In all seriousness, if your brother has invented a frack fluid that is non-toxic, he should work on marketing it. It probably isn't as cost effective as the current solutions, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction...
Honestly, I don't drink milkshakes from fast food restaurants. I do like ColdStone Creamery though...
In all seriousness, if your brother has invented a frack fluid that is non-toxic, he should work on marketing it. It probably isn't as cost effective as the current solutions, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction...
