Hay Creek Fresh Posted Signs

[silverfox]

Even if fishermen never littered and were totally perfect in all aspects of their behavior, the trend towards more posting would still continue. Not as fast, but it would still continue.

Littering was much worse when I was young (1960s & 1970s) than it is now, and less land was posted.

The main reasons for increased posting have to do with changes in land ownership, and with that changes in attitudes towards land.

The bottom line: If we want public fishing access, investments will have to be made in land purchases and easements.

If anyone imagines that the future will hold lots of PUBLIC access, on PRIVATE land, they're dreaming.

Bingo. This is why it's disheartening to see a small angler group struggling to raise funds to secure access to one of the state's most popular streams. It's admirable that the group has been able to pull it off to date, but it seems like the perfect opportunity for the state to secure a public fishing easement.

 

[Mike]

I'm sure liability concerns are an issue.

I'm sure liability concerns are an issue.

1965 Act 586

www.legis.state.pa.us

 

[PennKev]

1965 Act 586

www.legis.state.pa.us

Most people are not aware of this, and when are told of it they are still doubtful. I even recall seeing a law firm recommending on their web site that PA landowners post their property.

The notion that a frivolous lawsuit could spell financial ruin at any moment is so ingrained in society that even with the protections provided by this act, it is a tough sell.

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

Since they've passed that stupid, God awful, purple paint law , I don't think signs are even necessary, let alone being signed. What you propose is something we should all be doing regardless.

I never enter posted property without verbal permission to fish or hunt. MD requires written permission. We've even provided the favor of tacking up signs (provided by landowner with signatures) in exchange for property access.

 

[pcray1231]

Yet, the act of leasing increases more and more, and the landowner has a far bigger legal liability if he or she recieves compensation for people using the land.

Liability, both real and imagined is certainly part of it. As is poor behavior by hunters and fisherman.

But even if there were absolutely zero legal liability and all hunters/fishermen were angels, more and more land would still get posted. It's just a cultural change on land ownership. When I was younger, the Pocono's was pretty well posted up but most of the rest of the state wasn't. If you were in NC or NW PA, there was very little posted land. Farmers practically begged hunters to hunt on their land. That has since changed, and continues to change with a new generation. So many of those properties got bought out and the new owners come in. Some are people from more populated areas that want their private retreat, and don't want to deal with it. QDM has also become a thing in hunting, and a lot of people plant food plots just for hunters. Property has gotten so expensive and it's a way to make some money from your land. Long time family farms are kind of going by the wayside, and there's really 2 reasons to buy a large, huntable property upstate. Because you're a hunter and you want to hunt it. Or because you want to make money off the land (either subdividing and developing, or leasing hunting rights). They can't have Joe Public taking advantage of their hard work, nor invite a hunter and have him pay to be there, only to find someone who didn't pay sitting 100 yards away. So a few do things like that, pushing the public onto the fewer remaining properties that remain open. Now those properties are overcrowded, with people making ruts where the hunters/fishermen park, people around all the time, more litter, etc. So that landowner gets fed up and posts. And soon the majority of the properties are posted and it just kind of becomes like a standard thing for landowners of an area. All of your neighbors post, complain about the public, make jokes of the idiots who keep their land open, and are telling you how much $$$ they're making by leasing the stand over that small food plot. Imagine being a farmer and have the neighboring farm say "I only devoted a couple acres to food plots and that's bringing me in this much $$$$$". You start to say hmmm. Or if they are hunters themselves, showing you the huge buck they killed and saying what a shame it would be if some Joe Schmoe from the streets had killed that buck last year before it was mature. You know Pat, we'd have even more big bucks in this area if there weren't remaining non-posted land, you should post yours, it'd help us all. And even if you resist that temptation initially, it's in your head that you could, and suddenly a single piece of litter, or 1 car door slamming at 4 a.m., now annoys the heck out of you.

It just becomes part of the culture. I think it's driven by hunting more than fishing. But if the culture is to post and demonize the public, non landed sportsmen, it spills over into fishing as well. It's ashame. But at the same time, I can't really fault the landowners, they're not wrong. It's their land, within their rights, and if they can either get more $$$ or more personal enjoyment by posting, that's what they're going to do and there ain't much we can say about it. You have to find ways to make not posting the land more attractive for them.

 

[salmo]

Wow! I just found out about the “purple paint” law. This is my first notice. Boy am I screwed. I have a condition known as color confusion. Dark blue, dark green are all pretty much black to me. Pastels drive me totally nuts. Dark purple could be black to my eyes and lighter purple could be blue. How are people not familiar with this odd law supposed to be aware of the purple paint law. There’s nothing intuitive about see a purple paint mark on a tree. A black x makes much more sense.

There’s a stretch on one of my favorite Pocono stream where you can walk down a trail from the SGL and see no signs, but when you hit the road and turn around the trees along the road say that the lower part of the trail is posted. 😳

 

[wildtrout2]

Most people are not aware of this, and when are told of it they are still doubtful. I even recall seeing a law firm recommending on their web site that PA landowners post their property.

The notion that a frivolous lawsuit could spell financial ruin at any moment is so ingrained in society that even with the protections provided by this act, it is a tough sell.

It's easier for them to just post the land and wash their hands of any potential liabilities, regardless of Act 586.

 

[Mike]

It's easier for them to just post the land and wash their hands of any potential liabilities, regardless of Act 586.

Most people are not aware of this, and when are told of it they are still doubtful. I even recall seeing a law firm recommending on their web site that PA landowners post their property.

The notion that a frivolous lawsuit could spell financial ruin at any moment is so ingrained in society that even with the protections provided by this act, it is a tough sell.

[URLunfurl="true"]https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Fishing/Documents/RecreationUseLandWaterAct.pdf[/URL]

It would be very educational for individuals on this message board to read the above linked one page review, which I believe was put together by PFBC counsel, at least a version was in the past, and includes some case outcomes.

If and when liability potential becomes an issue of expressed concern, printed copies of the act and/or the latest pfbc write-up could easily be made available to landowners on the spot and had been at times in the past, at least in SE Pa.

I agree with pcray and my sense is that access for hunting has at least in the past been more of an issue for landowners than fishing. I say this because upon approaching landowners regarding the intent of their more generalized no trespassing or all encompassing, what could be called “nothing allowed” posters along stocked trout sections or proposed stocked sections it was commonly stated that those posters were targeting hunters and that fishing is or would be ok. Obviously, this wasn’t always the case, but it was a commonly heard response.

Why do landowners post their land against fishing when they had previously allowed that activity? Absolutely, the #1 voiced problem that I ran into was littering. This is why when I leave privately owned water I seldom leave empty handed, even if I only pick up one soda can or empty bait container. I almost always have discarded line in my waders too, but that’s because it is a death trap for birds, because I am often rewarded with attached lures and shot, and because unlike some litter, it’s clearly because some angler has left it behind.

Another common one was “crowds,” specifically regarding opening day. That was sometimes alleviated by shifting stocking to inseason only, a route started in Area 6. A distant #3 was gates left open/fences broken.

Ruts in roadside lawns or areas that are at least mowed are not appreciated either and the two times that landowners bitterly complained about slamming car doors at 5:30 AM were both in special reg areas…French Ck CRFFO, Pickering Ck DHALO. In fact, one of these was almost posted because of that.

 

[moodyblues]

Which stream was that? I used to cover part of that county as well, specifically the portion in Schuylkill R drainage basin. The stream where posting was spreading at that time was Pine Ck near Orwigsburg.

That part of Cold Stream which wasn't previously posted.

 

[Mike]

You’re right, Cold Rn was a problem. I overlooked that in my comment.

 

[moodyblues]

You’re right, Cold Rn was a problem. I overlooked that in my comment.

Yeah, I meant Cold Run. Cold S

Yet, the act of leasing increases more and more, and the landowner has a far bigger legal liability if he or she recieves compensation for people using the land.

Liability, both real and imagined is certainly part of it. As is poor behavior by hunters and fisherman.

But even if there were absolutely zero legal liability and all hunters/fishermen were angels, more and more land would still get posted. It's just a cultural change on land ownership. When I was younger, the Pocono's was pretty well posted up but most of the rest of the state wasn't. If you were in NC or NW PA, there was very little posted land. Farmers practically begged hunters to hunt on their land. That has since changed, and continues to change with a new generation. So many of those properties got bought out and the new owners come in. Some are people from more populated areas that want their private retreat, and don't want to deal with it. QDM has also become a thing in hunting, and a lot of people plant food plots just for hunters. Property has gotten so expensive and it's a way to make some money from your land. Long time family farms are kind of going by the wayside, and there's really 2 reasons to buy a large, huntable property upstate. Because you're a hunter and you want to hunt it. Or because you want to make money off the land (either subdividing and developing, or leasing hunting rights). They can't have Joe Public taking advantage of their hard work, nor invite a hunter and have him pay to be there, only to find someone who didn't pay sitting 100 yards away. So a few do things like that, pushing the public onto the fewer remaining properties that remain open. Now those properties are overcrowded, with people making ruts where the hunters/fishermen park, people around all the time, more litter, etc. So that landowner gets fed up and posts. And soon the majority of the properties are posted and it just kind of becomes like a standard thing for landowners of an area. All of your neighbors post, complain about the public, make jokes of the idiots who keep their land open, and are telling you how much $$$ they're making by leasing the stand over that small food plot. Imagine being a farmer and have the neighboring farm say "I only devoted a couple acres to food plots and that's bringing me in this much $$$$$". You start to say hmmm. Or if they are hunters themselves, showing you the huge buck they killed and saying what a shame it would be if some Joe Schmoe from the streets had killed that buck last year before it was mature. You know Pat, we'd have even more big bucks in this area if there weren't remaining non-posted land, you should post yours, it'd help us all. And even if you resist that temptation initially, it's in your head that you could, and suddenly a single piece of litter, or 1 car door slamming at 4 a.m., now annoys the heck out of you.

It just becomes part of the culture. I think it's driven by hunting more than fishing. But if the culture is to post and demonize the public, non landed sportsmen, it spills over into fishing as well. It's ashame. But at the same time, I can't really fault the landowners, they're not wrong. It's their land, within their rights, and if they can either get more $$$ or more personal enjoyment by posting, that's what they're going to do and there ain't much we can say about it. You have to find ways to make not posting the land more attractive for them.

tream is in Phillipsburg. LOL

[URLunfurl="true"]https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/Fishing/Documents/RecreationUseLandWaterAct.pdf[/URL]

It would be very educational for individuals on this message board to read the above linked one page review, which I believe was put together by PFBC counsel, at least a version was in the past, and includes some case outcomes.

If and when liability potential becomes an issue of expressed concern, printed copies of the act and/or the latest pfbc write-up could easily be made available to landowners on the spot and had been at times in the past, at least in SE Pa.

I agree with pcray and my sense is that access for hunting has at least in the past been more of an issue for landowners than fishing. I say this because upon approaching landowners regarding the intent of their more generalized no trespassing or all encompassing, what could be called “nothing allowed” posters along stocked trout sections or proposed stocked sections it was commonly stated that those posters were targeting hunters and that fishing is or would be ok. Obviously, this wasn’t always the case, but it was a commonly heard response.

Why do landowners post their land against fishing when they had previously allowed that activity? Absolutely, the #1 voiced problem that I ran into was littering. This is why when I leave privately owned water I seldom leave empty handed, even if I only pick up one soda can or empty bait container. I almost always have discarded line in my waders too, but that’s because it is a death trap for birds, because I am often rewarded with attached lures and shot, and because unlike some litter, it’s clearly because some angler has left it behind.

Another common one was “crowds,” specifically regarding opening day. That was sometimes alleviated by shifting stocking to inseason only, a route started in Area 6. A distant #3 was gates left open/fences broken.

Ruts in roadside lawns or areas that are at least mowed are not appreciated either and the two times that landowners bitterly complained about slamming car doors at 5:30 AM were both in special reg areas…French Ck CRFFO, Pickering Ck DHALO. In fact, one of these was almost posted because of that.

I'm with you on taking out trash, whether it's mine or someone elses. When I used to help John S. stock, some of the guys used to bust on me because I spent about as much, or more, time picking up as I did stocking. depended on how much "help" showed up.

 

[moodyblues]

Yet, the act of leasing increases more and more, and the landowner has a far bigger legal liability if he or she recieves compensation for people using the land.

Liability, both real and imagined is certainly part of it. As is poor behavior by hunters and fisherman.

But even if there were absolutely zero legal liability and all hunters/fishermen were angels, more and more land would still get posted. It's just a cultural change on land ownership. When I was younger, the Pocono's was pretty well posted up but most of the rest of the state wasn't. If you were in NC or NW PA, there was very little posted land. Farmers practically begged hunters to hunt on their land. That has since changed, and continues to change with a new generation. So many of those properties got bought out and the new owners come in. Some are people from more populated areas that want their private retreat, and don't want to deal with it. QDM has also become a thing in hunting, and a lot of people plant food plots just for hunters. Property has gotten so expensive and it's a way to make some money from your land. Long time family farms are kind of going by the wayside, and there's really 2 reasons to buy a large, huntable property upstate. Because you're a hunter and you want to hunt it. Or because you want to make money off the land (either subdividing and developing, or leasing hunting rights). They can't have Joe Public taking advantage of their hard work, nor invite a hunter and have him pay to be there, only to find someone who didn't pay sitting 100 yards away. So a few do things like that, pushing the public onto the fewer remaining properties that remain open. Now those properties are overcrowded, with people making ruts where the hunters/fishermen park, people around all the time, more litter, etc. So that landowner gets fed up and posts. And soon the majority of the properties are posted and it just kind of becomes like a standard thing for landowners of an area. All of your neighbors post, complain about the public, make jokes of the idiots who keep their land open, and are telling you how much $$$ they're making by leasing the stand over that small food plot. Imagine being a farmer and have the neighboring farm say "I only devoted a couple acres to food plots and that's bringing me in this much $$$$$". You start to say hmmm. Or if they are hunters themselves, showing you the huge buck they killed and saying what a shame it would be if some Joe Schmoe from the streets had killed that buck last year before it was mature. You know Pat, we'd have even more big bucks in this area if there weren't remaining non-posted land, you should post yours, it'd help us all. And even if you resist that temptation initially, it's in your head that you could, and suddenly a single piece of litter, or 1 car door slamming at 4 a.m., now annoys the heck out of you.

It just becomes part of the culture. I think it's driven by hunting more than fishing. But if the culture is to post and demonize the public, non landed sportsmen, it spills over into fishing as well. It's ashame. But at the same time, I can't really fault the landowners, they're not wrong. It's their land, within their rights, and if they can either get more $$$ or more personal enjoyment by posting, that's what they're going to do and there ain't much we can say about it. You have to find ways to make not posting the land more attractive for them.

 

[moodyblues]

Great post! you have made a lot of great points. I don't blame landowners at all for posting having witnessed some of the crap that I have, especially in the last several decades. I just hate seeing those ugly purple paint markings on trees.

 

[caddisflyer]

Yet, the act of leasing increases more and more, and the landowner has a far bigger legal liability if he or she recieves compensation for people using the land.

Liability, both real and imagined is certainly part of it. As is poor behavior by hunters and fisherman.

But even if there were absolutely zero legal liability and all hunters/fishermen were angels, more and more land would still get posted. It's just a cultural change on land ownership. When I was younger, the Pocono's was pretty well posted up but most of the rest of the state wasn't. If you were in NC or NW PA, there was very little posted land. Farmers practically begged hunters to hunt on their land. That has since changed, and continues to change with a new generation. So many of those properties got bought out and the new owners come in. Some are people from more populated areas that want their private retreat, and don't want to deal with it. QDM has also become a thing in hunting, and a lot of people plant food plots just for hunters. Property has gotten so expensive and it's a way to make some money from your land. Long time family farms are kind of going by the wayside, and there's really 2 reasons to buy a large, huntable property upstate. Because you're a hunter and you want to hunt it. Or because you want to make money off the land (either subdividing and developing, or leasing hunting rights). They can't have Joe Public taking advantage of their hard work, nor invite a hunter and have him pay to be there, only to find someone who didn't pay sitting 100 yards away. So a few do things like that, pushing the public onto the fewer remaining properties that remain open. Now those properties are overcrowded, with people making ruts where the hunters/fishermen park, people around all the time, more litter, etc. So that landowner gets fed up and posts. And soon the majority of the properties are posted and it just kind of becomes like a standard thing for landowners of an area. All of your neighbors post, complain about the public, make jokes of the idiots who keep their land open, and are telling you how much $$$ they're making by leasing the stand over that small food plot. Imagine being a farmer and have the neighboring farm say "I only devoted a couple acres to food plots and that's bringing me in this much $$$$$". You start to say hmmm. Or if they are hunters themselves, showing you the huge buck they killed and saying what a shame it would be if some Joe Schmoe from the streets had killed that buck last year before it was mature. You know Pat, we'd have even more big bucks in this area if there weren't remaining non-posted land, you should post yours, it'd help us all. And even if you resist that temptation initially, it's in your head that you could, and suddenly a single piece of litter, or 1 car door slamming at 4 a.m., now annoys the heck out of you.

It just becomes part of the culture. I think it's driven by hunting more than fishing. But if the culture is to post and demonize the public, non landed sportsmen, it spills over into fishing as well. It's ashame. But at the same time, I can't really fault the landowners, they're not wrong. It's their land, within their rights, and if they can either get more $$$ or more personal enjoyment by posting, that's what they're going to do and there ain't much we can say about it. You have to find ways to make not posting the land more attractive for them.

You pretty much summed it up.

 

[caddisflyer]

I have approached landowners many times over the years for fishing and hunting. While they often state that littering or damage is the reason for posting I would guess that they just don't want to state the real reason. They just do not want people on their property. Period. And as stated above ,this is a changing cultural thing. "Tolerated trespassing" was the rule rather than the exception when I was growing up in the 1970s. That is no longer so.
The purple paint thing is a disgrace. How any lawmaker could vote for it is beyond me.

I recently purchased an app for my phone called OnX. It shows who owns land and property lines etc. I talked with a game warden and he said it is a good app and is very accurate. You would be surprised how many landowners move their posters out onto public land a few hundred yards. I have seen some very creative posting designed to deny people access to public areas. I wish something could be done but of course it would only make the landowners more angry.

 

[caddisflyer]

Even if fishermen never littered and were totally perfect in all aspects of their behavior, the trend towards more posting would still continue. Not as fast, but it would still continue.

Littering was much worse when I was young (1960s & 1970s) than it is now, and less land was posted.

The main reasons for increased posting have to do with changes in land ownership, and with that changes in attitudes towards land.

The bottom line: If we want public fishing access, investments will have to be made in land purchases and easements.

If anyone imagines that the future will hold lots of PUBLIC access, on PRIVATE land, they're dreaming.

Exactly right. Game and Fish Comm. should really be putting money toward this. Some of the local conservancy groups do some of this but some of them do not allow hunting or even fishing n portions of their holdings.

 

[Mike]

With all of the discussion regarding losses of access due to posting, at least with respect to stocked trout stream sections and long segments of some sections, below is the 39 yr tally for Fisheries Management Area 6, which covers the lower Delaware Basin, including the entire Schuylkill R Basin, and the lower Susquehanna Basin. I think this quite good for such a region and suggests to me that major problems can often be avoided when landowners receive some positive attention from club affiliated sportsmen, unaffiliated sportsmen, WCO’s, their deputies, and AFMs (and their staffs). Unfortunately, that same attention for the most part statewide, including the SE, probably isn’t given to landowners on wild trout streams, such as Class A’s.

Area 6 39 yr tally:
Entire stocked sections/streams and major section segments lost due to posting: 17
Stocked sections/streams and major section segments added to the stocking program: 41.

Given the human population density and number of anglers in SE Pa, the above tally doesn’t entirely support some of the doom and gloom expressed in this thread. Nevertheless, given the reality of the strong potential for posting in a high population density region it may be that sportsmen and PFBC personnel work a little harder to maintain positive landowner relations and agencies/political entities work a little harder to get grants to develop greenways for recreational purposes. The bottom line is “take care of your landowners,” which can be things as simple as seeking them out to thank them or as you pass them when entering or leaving your fishing location thanking them for allowing public fishing.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I have approached landowners many times over the years for fishing and hunting. While they often state that littering or damage is the reason for posting I would guess that they just don't want to state the real reason. They just do not want people on their property. Period. And as stated above ,this is a changing cultural thing. "Tolerated trespassing" was the rule rather than the exception when I was growing up in the 1970s. That is no longer so.
The purple paint thing is a disgrace. How any lawmaker could vote for it is beyond me.

I recently purchased an app for my phone called OnX. It shows who owns land and property lines etc. I talked with a game warden and he said it is a good app and is very accurate. You would be surprised how many landowners move their posters out onto public land a few hundred yards. I have seen some very creative posting designed to deny people access to public areas. I wish something could be done but of course it would only make the landowners more angry.

Onx is only as accurate as the county parcel map data feeding it. In some cases it is very accurate, others not at all. There are Publix land boundaries near me that are off by 2-300 yards based on state forest and sgl survey marks and timbersale boundaries. Just an FYI to not trust the lines on the app blindly

 

[Bamboozle]

Exactly right. Game and Fish Comm. should really be putting money toward this. Some of the local conservancy groups do some of this but some of them do not allow hunting or even fishing n portions of their holdings.

CAP Program

www.fishandboat.com

I make a donation every year...

 

[DomR]

I'm sure liability concerns are an issue.

Liability concerns are a huge private landowner issue. Sadly giving consent for public use is big risk. Even if it ends well some unscrupulous people and lawyers can put a landowner through hell and at big cost.