FOX 43 News: PFBC stocking invasive trout story(link to video of story aired on evening news). PFBC declines to be interviewed

[lycoflyfisher]

The first brown trout stocked in Pennsylvania were straight from Europe. I am not aware of any recent genetic work, but I can't say that I have ever seen a wild Brown with the typical digibrown look of PFBC hatchery fish or the enlarged spot patterns typical of many other hatchery operations currently in operation.

 

[silverfox]

Do these stocked trout absolutely never reproduce? Specifically brown trout. It seems that wild brown trout are in many creeks In my area. Maybe this is a stupid question but are they from recent stocked browns that reproduced? Recent being from the last few decades. Or are they ancestors of brown trout from long ago? If stocked trout don’t reproduce how did brown trout take hold from the jump? Were the very beginnings of stocked browns pure wild trout imported from different parts of the world?

A lot of folks like to think that all the wild BT in PA are the descendants of eggs that were shipped here in the late 1800s. Some even suggest that the fish from Germany have maintained a separate line from the fish from Scotland. I don't buy it. Not in all cases. They're the same species, and fully capable of breeding with each other, and they're being stocked in streams that support brook trout which require the best water quality and habitat conditions. Of course there is stocked trout survival and in some cases, reproduction.

My position is based on what I've seen. The more recent strain of BT that PFBC uses tends to have distinct markings. Instead of round spots, they have squiggly lines. I've even seen anglers on social media arguing over whether a photograph of a PFBC stocked BT is a tiger trout. In a stream near me that was predominantly brook trout 30 years ago that is now predominantly brown trout, I've caught countless brown trout that have a mixture of that squiggly line trait and the more typical wild brown trout traits. They'll have the blue spot on their operculum, clean fins, smaller body size, mostly round spots, but then they have orange spots instead of deep red, and they'll have the broken/squiggly line spots on their body too.

On that particular stream, it was the establishment of a club that started stocking the bejesus out of the stream about 20 years ago and the state dumping brood stock in the stream, plus I think some really bad jack dams that prohibit movement in the summer and created a bunch of unnatural deep pool habitat all contributed to an explosion in the BT population (and the loss of ST).

The fish PFBC stocks are not hybrids. They are fully capable of reproducing in the wild. I agree that the most significant impacts from stocking are likely the increased incidental mortality, and risk of disease introduction, however, these fish are fully capable of establishing populations of naturally reproducing trout.

 

[jifigz]

Do these stocked trout absolutely never reproduce? Specifically brown trout. It seems that wild brown trout are in many creeks In my area. Maybe this is a stupid question but are they from recent stocked browns that reproduced? Recent being from the last few decades. Or are they ancestors of brown trout from long ago? If stocked trout don’t reproduce how did brown trout take hold from the jump? Were the very beginnings of stocked browns pure wild trout imported from different parts of the world?

There is always a possibility, but in the majority of cases brown trout are already so established across the state that if conditions are favorable they are probably already there. I'm sure stocked browns breed, or try to breed, with wild browns already there.

The rainbows obviously struggle to reproduce or we'd be overrun by them by now.

 

[Steeltrap]

I think the most invasive species on the planet is man.

 

[Andrwhite610]

I’d have to say In my experience this winter fishing stocked waters Ive caught only 3 stocked fish. 2 rainbows and 1 bizarre looking brown. In comparison to roughy 50-75 obviously wild browns. So I’m assuming the stocked fish generally are all taken or die off. I’m sure this is a old, tired topic but it’s new to me.

The ST streams I’ve fished are very tiny and it would seem odd to me that a brownie would be in them but they do connect to populated brown trout water. Are the ST just forced up into these headwaters or just prefer it? Would ST be In the more average streams if it weren’t for BT? Id assume humans do more damage to ST than BT do. I'm in the Schuylkill river watershed in Berks.

 

[silverfox]

I think the most invasive species on the planet is man.

When a species moves on its own, it's called migration.

 

[silverfox]

I’d have to say In my experience this winter fishing stocked waters Ive caught only 3 stocked fish. 2 rainbows and 1 bizarre looking brown. In comparison to roughy 50-75 obviously wild browns. So I’m assuming the stocked fish generally are all taken or die off. I’m sure this is a old, tired topic but it’s new to me.

The ST streams I’ve fished are very tiny and it would seem odd to me that a brownie would be in them but they do connect to populated brown trout water. Are the ST just forced up into these headwaters or just prefer it? Would ST be In the more average streams if it weren’t for BT? Id assume humans do more damage to ST than BT do. I'm in the Schuylkill river watershed in Berks.

I know that question was just addressed on a podcast recently. No, brook trout don't live in 1st and 2nd order streams because they prefer those habitats. Brook trout live in large lakes in NY, ME, and Canada (including Superior today); they live in large rivers in New England, the Gaspe Penninsula, and in many other parts of Canada, they even live in the ocean. People routinely catch them in Penns Ck in PA. The species doesn't have an innate proclivity for tiny streams.

 

[jifigz]

When a species moves on its own, it's called migration.

Sure. And then any and all destructive habits and practices don't matter as much because it happened through migration instead. Migration of, basically, the only species capable of really spreading invasive species.

 

[silverfox]

Sure. And then any and all destructive habits and practices don't matter as much because it happened through migration instead. Migration of, basically, the only species capable of really spreading invasive species.

So then why do we attempt to correct our past mistakes when it comes to historic industrialization, pollution, logging, or other habitat degradation, but then stop when it comes to species?

 

[jifigz]

So then why do we attempt to correct our past mistakes when it comes to historic industrialization, pollution, logging, or other habitat degradation, but then stop when it comes to species?

How did you infer that meaning at all from my post? I don't feel that way and never have.. I'm all for correcting our past mistakes when possible.

I'm saying that somehow our actions seem more "forgivable" because we migrated. Tis' all, nothing more.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

If those stocked trout don't reproduce and, in many streams, die off/vanish are they still invasive? I'm talking about the fish specifically stocked by the PFBC. I would say no. That line that is stocked is not spreading, colonizing, and over taking environments. They are a temporary disruption.

I don't refute brown and rainbow trout are invasive. Of course they are. So many species are. So many common species people would never realize.

So, did the PFBC knowingly lie if their strains aren't reproducing and becoming established?

Of course they reproduce, every year in March their offspring appear as full sized adults.

 

[jifigz]

Of course they reproduce, every year in March their offspring appear as full sized adults.

Really? And the proof for that is where? Why don't we have rainbow trout all over the state?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Really? And the proof for that is where? Why don't we have rainbow trout all over the state?

They don't have offspring at the fish culture stations that then appear in our streams every year in March?

It seems to me they don't vanish, they keep reappearing 🤷 and we do have rainbow trout all over the state.

 

[silverfox]

How did you infer that meaning at all from my post? I don't feel that way and never have.. I'm all for correcting our past mistakes when possible.

I'm saying that somehow our actions seem more "forgivable" because we migrated. Tis' all, nothing more.

I meant that we accept that we've caused great harm, regardless of whether we identify as invasive or the product of our evolution, but only to the degree that correcting our mistakes is limited to the things we identify as bad. Whether we believe that we're invasive or not hasn't changed our desire to fix the mistakes we've made in the past, up until it means fixing something that is widely popular. Or, we don't downplay or excuse the damage we've caused because we migrated, except when it comes to species we introduced that then became a popular sportfish.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea if we are going to fix other man made impairments like AMD, deforestation then to treat another man made impairment (invasive species classified as an anthropogenic impairment ) as if it doesn’t exist just reflects our bias that we like that impairment. Its ok to admit. The reason we step on lantern flies is they don’t crush streamers, take dries, or do anything else we like.

 

[krayfish2]

Brown trout versus what PFBC stocks and calls brown trout 😂

 

[Fish Sticks]

I’d have to say In my experience this winter fishing stocked waters Ive caught only 3 stocked fish. 2 rainbows and 1 bizarre looking brown. In comparison to roughy 50-75 obviously wild browns. So I’m assuming the stocked fish generally are all taken or die off. I’m sure this is a old, tired topic but it’s new to me.

The ST streams I’ve fished are very tiny and it would seem odd to me that a brownie would be in them but they do connect to populated brown trout water. Are the ST just forced up into these headwaters or just prefer it? Would ST be In the more average streams if it weren’t for BT? Id assume humans do more damage to ST than BT do. I'm in the Schuylkill river watershed in Berks.

There is a good study that addresses your question. Hoxmier and deiterman removed brown trout from coolridge creek in Minnesota and brook trout moved downstream occupied larger water and increased their growth rate. Invasive trout serve as a barrier of sorts, its been demonstrated their associated with decreased brook trout movement. So the answer is yes brook trout would be in many more streams in this state if not for brown trout.

If you have never heard of source-sink dynamics google it. The brook trout tribs are likely sources and these larger mainstream streams browns occupy could either be sources as well or sinks. ( both valuable). Ya gotta think temp is a non issue in these big streams 2/3rds a year and spawning habitat is a non issue 11 months a year and their loaded with food. If some significant fraction of nearby brook trout aren’t found down there in January-feb-march-april-mid may and its fully of macros, sculpins, crayfish theres a good reason

 

[Mike]

There is a good study that addresses your question. Hoxmier and deiterman removed brown trout from coolridge creek in Minnesota and brook trout moved downstream occupied larger water and increased their growth rate. Invasive trout serve as a barrier of sorts, its been demonstrated their associated with decreased brook trout movement. So the answer is yes brook trout would be in many more streams in this state if not for brown trout

Brook trout moved down into the portion of the stream that had been dominated by Brown trout in a mixed Brown/Brook population But a lower percentage of the Brook Trout moved out into the receiving stream once the Browns were removed.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Brook trout moved down into the portion of the stream that had been dominated by Brown trout in a mixed Brown/Brook population But a lower percentage of the Brook Trout moved out into the receiving stream once the Browns were removed.

“Abundance of brook trout increased after brown trout removal primarily as a result of increased recruitment and immigration. Size structure also shifted towards larger individuals as a result of increased growth rates and a decrease in emigration of larger trout. Size at maturity and body condition did not change after brown trout removal.”

(PDF) Long-term population demographics of native brook trout following manipulative reduction of an invader

PDF | Although laboratory studies have provided evidence for negative interactions between brook trout and brown trout, it is unknown how these... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[Mike]

“Abundance of brook trout increased after brown trout removal primarily as a result of increased recruitment and immigration. Size structure also shifted towards larger individuals as a result of increased growth rates and a decrease in emigration of larger trout. Size at maturity and body condition did not change after brown trout removal.”

(PDF) Long-term population demographics of native brook trout following manipulative reduction of an invader

PDF | Although laboratory studies have provided evidence for negative interactions between brook trout and brown trout, it is unknown how these... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

See Figure 4…conflicts with 1) the idea that ST need to move to bigger receiving streams during the cooler months of the year and 2) the idea that they can’t run the Brown trout gauntlet in order to do so.