Fly Fishing, The Internet, and SpotBurning

[larkmark]

I'm the nicest guy you would ever want to meet.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Prospector,

You got it right. Dont change.
Multiple times while on spring creeks i have run into another angler. I only chat briefly. Tell them where im going and exactly how much untouched water im leaving them.
It makes a huge difference.

I had a guy on the Letort once thank me up and down because i told him im giving him the rest of his meadow and the next one. I was going to upper bonnybrook for a bit then downstream out of the heritage area where i was before. I fished the entire letort except where he was that day. I was scouting it and fishing fast. We were the only two anglers i knew of and saw. It can make a huge difference in his day.

Again, stream etiquette is very important. In fact, the most important and it goes beyond how we interact with eachother to how we interact in nature.

 

[larkmark]

When I was a boy my dad noticed that the mulberries were ripe in the tree in our yard. He suggested I take my rod down to where we knew there was a mulberry tree that hung over the creek. I had a lot of fun.
That was a good stream report. Thanks Dad.

 

[wbranch]

Farmer Dave wrote;

Can't say that internet has been all good for the sport. I'm old school but not quite old enough to start yelling at clouds.

I've not been reading the general forum for quite a few weeks and when I saw this thread today I wanted to add my thoughts immediately and then read the seven pages later.

As far as I am concerned the Internet and particularly Facebook and Instagram and for that matter any other platform where guys can post hero shots and tell everyone where to go and in some cases even where to park has had a very detrimental effect on the quality of fly fishing post Internet versus pre Internet.

Admittedly at one time I was a flagrant offender. Before I realized how hurtful posting up pictures of big trout was and particularly pictures including recognizable backgrounds so it was vividly clear where I was fishing.

I'm not going to wax poetic about how fantastic the Delaware was pre Internet except to say I didn't see my first drift boat until 1985 and from 1966 to the late 1980's my buddy and I could fish anywhere from Hale Eddy to Balls Eddy and see maybe half a dozen, or less, fly fishers. On the main stem we fished an area below Lordville without seeing another fisherman for close to ten years and the average rainbow was 17" and 8 - 10 fish a day was normal.

There are a few groups who post incessantly about the fantastic fishing on the Delaware and it's branches. Without a means to float the river the few remaining parking areas get so crowded that it is either hard to find a place to park or if you are lucky enough to find a place you wind up sharing a section with ten other guys that is really only big enough for five guys.

I'm sure many other PA and area state trout waters have become overly crowded and much of that crowding is the result of the Internet and guys spewing their guts to answer inquiries posted by guys who are too freaking lazy to get out and do some leg work on the rivers and read some literature to further their limited fly fishing knowledge.

Back when I was in my mid 20's fishing the Beaverkill and Willowemoc in the summers when fishing slowed by noon I used to drive all over Sullivan and Delaware counties looking for places to fish and park. I found dozens of great sections and had wonderful fishing in near private settings for decades until the onslaught of fly fishing became so darn popular in the mid 1980's. Popularity was the resultant of the advent of interest in the sport and magazines like FlyFisherman, Rod & Reel, and others that published articles about where to go, when to go, where to stay, what flies to use and published picture after picture of well known waters.

While writing this I can see the Internet is not solely to blame for the state of fly fishing today. The fly fishing magazines offered a new sport to thousands of newcomers and nutured their interests with all the articles and pictures. The Internet just made it so much easier for guys to get spoon fed information instead of figuring it out on their own.

I belong to a steelhead FB page and it is amazing how lazy many people are or maybe they are just ignorant and don't know where to look for the information they seek. I'm willing to offer information on tackle, technique, fly tying, but not very willing to offer where to fish and when to fish. Yes, it could be considered selfish but I'm okay with that considering I have a wealth of fly fishing knowledge and will share it freely.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

The population has grow and the number of anglers has as well. At least in some areas. Lets not forget :https://fishuntamed.com/dingell-johnson-act/. This fund helps states with funds for ?. I'd be interested to see how this money is spent in Pa.? Any ideas on where I'd find this? GG

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
The population has grow and the number of anglers has as well. At least in some areas. Lets not forget :https://fishuntamed.com/dingell-johnson-act/. This fund helps states with funds for ?. I'd be interested to see how this money is spent in Pa.? Any ideas on where I'd find this? GG

It goes to the PFBC.

 

[jifigz]

FrankTroutAngler wrote:

gulfgreyhound wrote:
The population has grow and the number of anglers has as well. At least in some areas. Lets not forget :https://fishuntamed.com/dingell-johnson-act/. This fund helps states with funds for ?. I'd be interested to see how this money is spent in Pa.? Any ideas on where I'd find this? GG

It goes to the PFBC.

That's where it goes. I believe he asked to see how it was spent......

 

[larkmark]

westbranch pretty well nailed it. Anyone who has been around for a while probably has seen the same thing. Overall the quality of the fishing has declined. I don't bother anymore with Spring Cr. or Penns. The average size of the fish is smaller and seeing the constant year around pounding is a real turn off. The Delaware is actually starting to feel that way too. Catching fish with mouths that look like pin cushions is kind of sad to me. I have a few places I keep to myself and am content with them. I pray no one discovers them and publicizes any of those because I know exactly what will happen. Several are on private property and are on the small side and the landowners who I have known for many years won't hesitate to shut it all down. The worst are the kiss and tell youtubers in my view. Very destructive IMHO.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

jifigz wrote:

FrankTroutAngler wrote:

gulfgreyhound wrote:
The population has grow and the number of anglers has as well. At least in some areas. Lets not forget :https://fishuntamed.com/dingell-johnson-act/. This fund helps states with funds for ?. I'd be interested to see how this money is spent in Pa.? Any ideas on where I'd find this? GG

It goes to the PFBC.

That's where it goes. I believe he asked to see how it was spent......

I thought it was pretty obvious that if it goes to the PFBC that it is spent to help fulfill their mission.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

Allocation? Hatcheries,Law Enforcement,or? GG

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Larkmark I couldn't agree more with what you just said perfectly put and my feelings are 100% the same.

 

[FarmerDave]

gulfgreyhound wrote:
Allocation? Hatcheries,Law Enforcement,or? GG

Yes. ;-)

 

[Prospector]

larkmark wrote:
westbranch pretty well nailed it. Anyone who has been around for a while probably has seen the same thing. Overall the quality of the fishing has declined. I don't bother anymore with Spring Cr. or Penns. The average size of the fish is smaller and seeing the constant year around pounding is a real turn off. The Delaware is actually starting to feel that way too. Catching fish with mouths that look like pin cushions is kind of sad to me. I have a few places I keep to myself and am content with them. I pray no one discovers them and publicizes any of those because I know exactly what will happen. Several are on private property and are on the small side and the landowners who I have known for many years won't hesitate to shut it all down. The worst are the kiss and tell youtubers in my view. Very destructive IMHO.

Landmark,
I agree with everything you said here. I’ve seen encroachment in the sport over 45years of Fly Fishing. It’s undeniable. But despite all of that I can still go to any stream and still have a quality experience. I went to Penns for the first and only time 2 years ago during the green drake hatch and subsequent spinnerfall. However I was fishing water that was off the beaten path and I didn’t run into another fisherman and I worked about 250- 300 yd stretch of water. Before I headed back to my hotel I used the last minutes after sunset to drop downstream of Coburn and saw the fellows lined up combat fishing. I’m glad I took the time to do that so I could gain an appreciation for how it can be.

In terms of this site I have made a commitment to post a lot stream reports. Other people’s reports have made my experiences better. I still would not have fished Penns if I hadn’t been intrigued by the reports on this site.

On the flip side, Landmark, I’m with you about being careful with a handful of gems (certain wild trout streams). I fished 35 streams this year but only posted reports on 31 streams. Those 4 I held back were ones I felt should stay out of the limelight both for selfish reasons (because I do really well there)!and for the sake of lessening pressure on the tremendous resource these streams are.

I fish more stocked streams than wild streams and I really don’t think posting on stocked streams does much to change things. But there were 2 times this past year, where I reported on good fishing conditions that I recognized when it seemed like others did not (since I had the stream to myself). I probably provided too much insight and the next time those conditions occurred, there were many people on “said stream”. So that was a bit of an eye opener. I’m probably going to be little more careful about disclosing the entire “recipe for ice cubes”. In another case I mentioned a special regs area that I consider to be lightly fished and I put up some good numbers on back to back days there. In hindsight, some regular was probably not very happy with me.

But in the end I think more good comes out of these interactions than harm. There are still tons of great locations with light pressure and that is what I continue to seek

 

[FarmerDave]

larkmark wrote:
westbranch pretty well nailed it. Anyone who has been around for a while probably has seen the same thing...

I've been 39 for over 20 years which means I was around before the internet craze, and the "LOOK AT ME" movement.

I have seen what you guys are talking about as well, but it has been very limited because of where I grew up. The trout fishing never was all that good compared to the eastern 2/3 of the state. First time I fished Penns, was probably in the mid to late 90s, and by then it was crowded.

Anyway, the majority of streams that I used to fish back in the day still receive minimal pressure outside of the first two weeks of the season. The native streams saw even less because we all know that there are no trout unless they are stocked. Right Maxi? ;-)

I would argue that from my perspective that trout fishing has actually improved, but this has been a result of the near death of the coal industry in NWPA, not the internet. The water quality has improved in many of those streams, so the fishing has gotten better. Some streams that did not have trout, now do. Others that maybe had a few now have more, but still very few class A. Very few have gotten worse.

So what I do when people ask me a general question on where to fish, I point them to a ATW list or send them East. ;-)

Seriously though. I tend to agree with Prospector's last paragraph in the response right above this one. But then, I am pretty sure there is a lot of overlap in our stomping grounds.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

There is more clean water in Pa. than when I grew up. As Dave said the death of coal made for a rebirth in clean trout streams. I had a friend that only fished watershed with no coal mining on them.. probably some that Prospector and Dave are familiar with. I went to school in Clarion because of the trout fishing/ education. Believe me I fished a lot while attending . There were big trout back then in creeks that saw little pressure and I believe that today there are still big ones in those same creeks. Right now would be the perfect time to put a hook in one or more. GG

 

[Mike]

Without considering some stocked trout sections that also supported good wild trout populations, I can then say that I never saw (surveyed) a wild trout population that had the appearance ( abundance and/or fish length distribution) of one that had been impacted by angler harvest. I had seen that in a limited number of stocked trout sections that also supported wild trout back in the late 1970’s and pre Operation Future in the early 1980’s. After 1982 I also saw it in some wild populations within stocked trout sections, but those sections eventually saw increases in wild trout biomass to the point where they became Class A and were removed from the stocking program. In a very few cases my recommendation was to speed that along by decreasing the stocking frequency and/or changing the species stocked to RT. My point...I don’t see the limited fishing pressure being brought on (in theory) by spot burning having much of a negative impact on the quality of wild trout fisheries except perhaps in some special situations as described by Prospector. I can think of two wild BT populations that have very easily caught (gullible) large browns in an area where harvest is king, so I would be reluctant to broadcast those to the general angling public. As for social problems associated with spot burning, I could much more readily see that being a valid concern in some trout fisheries ( limited parking, landowner relations, etc).

 

[HopBack]

Overall the quality of the fishing has declined. I don't bother anymore with Spring Cr. or Penns. The average size of the fish is smaller and seeing the constant year around pounding is a real turn off.

Not true at all... Spring creek has more trout per mile than ever and Penns creek continues to see average size of trout increase as well as the population expanding downstream. Just take a look a the PFBC trout surveys and its pretty easy to see.

On a side note, I now fish a number of streams local to me that have thriving wild trout populations where none existed 10 years before.

I hardly ever fish streams that receive any pressure. If I do, its maybe once a year on a weekday. There is no reason to with so many great streams out there not named, Penns, spring, or little J and they fish just as good if not better than these streams at times.

 

[Millsertime]

HopBack wrote:

On a side note, I now fish a number of streams local to me that have thriving wild trout populations where none existed 10 years before.

Could this be because 10 years ago those streams weren't posted on the internet as having wild trout populations?

I will admit that is the case with me...There are streams over the past 10 years I never fished before because I assumed there were no trout present. Now with stream names and coordinates listed on the internet, I'm more apt to fish said streams.

 

[HopBack]

Could this be because 10 years ago those streams weren't posted on the internet as having wild trout populations?

No, changes in industry and farm/ag practices have made the difference. These are active measures taken by TU or the PFBC as far as I am aware.

I use the internet also, mostly the PFBC wild trout map as a basis for planning my trips. Even then its a crap shoot as to how the fishing will turn out.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Hopback he is referring more to the quality of fishing going down because they both get fished hard and to much pressure then anything else. I have fished penns creek for 30 years I don't need a trout survey to tell me the to tell me whats in there.