NewSal
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A strike indicator is a bobber..What's next your going to tell me I don't need to buy $5,000 in Simms wading gear to catch fish??
NewSal
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Thanks just_jon looks like I'm not the only one then
pcray1231
Well-known member
Ok, so what's happening here is you discovering emergers. Possibly drowned adults but more likely emergers. Those bugs flying around aren't laying eggs. Baetis (BWO) do their mating and laying at night generally. They were hatching.
Now, think about how that happens. They are a swimming nymph (there are 3 types among mayflies, swimmers is one). As the hatch approaches, they get out of the current into backwater areas and school up, like minnows. The type of place you describe. Just before they hatch the nymphs get right up to the surface, just under the film, and stop swimming. This is when they're real vulnerable. The adult dun breaks out of it's nymphal shuck and emerges on top of the film. It then rides on top (dun stage) like a sailboat till the wings dry and it takes flight.
On drizzly, dreary days fish often take duns, because their wings don't dry quickly and thus they ride the surface for a long time. Fishermen think the hatch is heavier because you see more "sailboats" on the water and the fish rise better. But they're just failing to take flight and then getting caught in the main current and thus fish all over the stream get on them, not just in hatching locations. Plus fish just feed better when the sun isn't out.
But on drier days, they still hatch, just quicker and more successfully. There are less fish rising and those that do generally do so on emergers and in a funnel type location below a heavy hatch area. Like your tailout most likely. They are eating nymphs just under the surface while those nymphs are in the process of transforming into duns. A few screwed up and got themselves in a current.
They do make emerger patterns designed to ride in the film for this situation. For me, my best success is with "floating" nymphs. Generally I'll dry-dropper it. About a foot behind the dun put an unweighted pheasant tail tied on a dry fly hook. The store bought nymphs are usually tied on heavier gauge nymph hooks. That's no good, need the fine wire of a dry fly hook. You can even grease the leader, or apply a powdered type floatant to the nymph. The goal is to make it ride just under the surface like the nymphs which are about to hatch. An emerger pattern most typically has a tuft of cdc on top, but not on the sides or underneath. So the body sinks but gets suspended by the cdc. Personally I struggle with cdc, it tends to float too high and then get waterlogged and truly sink, which drives me nuts. Hence me just using nymphs. It's a tricky thing to get anything to ride like that, just under the film. Even harder to tell if a rise is to your fly (that's why I use a dry dropper, the dry at least tells me about where my nymph is, and also is useful to see if you have drag).
Anyway, your experience is the norm for these bugs. I have caught 30+ on BWOs multiple times with this approach. If they ain't rising all over but there are bugs find some backwater eddy and look below VERY closely. Remember it come sulphur time too, as they hatch in a similar manner. If you struggle with a dun, consider that those rises are actually taking nymphs!
March Browns, drakes, etc hatch differently though. . It doesn't apply to all mayflies.
Now, think about how that happens. They are a swimming nymph (there are 3 types among mayflies, swimmers is one). As the hatch approaches, they get out of the current into backwater areas and school up, like minnows. The type of place you describe. Just before they hatch the nymphs get right up to the surface, just under the film, and stop swimming. This is when they're real vulnerable. The adult dun breaks out of it's nymphal shuck and emerges on top of the film. It then rides on top (dun stage) like a sailboat till the wings dry and it takes flight.
On drizzly, dreary days fish often take duns, because their wings don't dry quickly and thus they ride the surface for a long time. Fishermen think the hatch is heavier because you see more "sailboats" on the water and the fish rise better. But they're just failing to take flight and then getting caught in the main current and thus fish all over the stream get on them, not just in hatching locations. Plus fish just feed better when the sun isn't out.
But on drier days, they still hatch, just quicker and more successfully. There are less fish rising and those that do generally do so on emergers and in a funnel type location below a heavy hatch area. Like your tailout most likely. They are eating nymphs just under the surface while those nymphs are in the process of transforming into duns. A few screwed up and got themselves in a current.
They do make emerger patterns designed to ride in the film for this situation. For me, my best success is with "floating" nymphs. Generally I'll dry-dropper it. About a foot behind the dun put an unweighted pheasant tail tied on a dry fly hook. The store bought nymphs are usually tied on heavier gauge nymph hooks. That's no good, need the fine wire of a dry fly hook. You can even grease the leader, or apply a powdered type floatant to the nymph. The goal is to make it ride just under the surface like the nymphs which are about to hatch. An emerger pattern most typically has a tuft of cdc on top, but not on the sides or underneath. So the body sinks but gets suspended by the cdc. Personally I struggle with cdc, it tends to float too high and then get waterlogged and truly sink, which drives me nuts. Hence me just using nymphs. It's a tricky thing to get anything to ride like that, just under the film. Even harder to tell if a rise is to your fly (that's why I use a dry dropper, the dry at least tells me about where my nymph is, and also is useful to see if you have drag).
Anyway, your experience is the norm for these bugs. I have caught 30+ on BWOs multiple times with this approach. If they ain't rising all over but there are bugs find some backwater eddy and look below VERY closely. Remember it come sulphur time too, as they hatch in a similar manner. If you struggle with a dun, consider that those rises are actually taking nymphs!
March Browns, drakes, etc hatch differently though. . It doesn't apply to all mayflies.
NewSal
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Very cool Pcray!
Makes a lot of sense, I think you described exactly what was going on
Makes a lot of sense, I think you described exactly what was going on
pcray1231
Well-known member
This is where knowing the bugs comes into play. When, how, and where in the stream they hatch.... It ain't about getting an imitation with perfect colors and shapes. It's about understanding what's going on so that you can adjust accordingly.
For instance, knowing this, in BWO hatch situations that don't bring up every fish in the dang stream, you can search out these types of locations and find more pods like that. When you find them and float a dun past them a few times perfectly and don't get a take, you should immediately question whether they're on duns or emergers. When they nail a sunken dry that should confirm it, and you can switch to a more effective pattern or technique to mimick that.
There's no feeling in the world like figuring it out. That's what this sport is about. And when you do, you will either catch or miss nearly every one of those fish in that pod in quick order. Then you'll go looking for another pod, and know where to focus for them.
As a piece of advice, when you get to that point, there's always one or two uncatchables in every pod like that. Maybe you stung em once already and they're a little shy. Or whatever. So if you quickly catch 3 or 4, don't spend the rest of the hatch on that last one. Go find another pod, catch 3 or 4 in short order, find another, catch 3 or 4 in short order, etc. I know, that's hard to do if it's crowded, every spot has a guy. But if it's not crowded, this is how you rack up numbers.
As another piece of advice, once you perfect it, at least for me, it gets boring! Now you need to figure out another hatch, or fish in a different situation. When you start telling your buddy, "yeah, we could catch a bunch on BWO's, but what's the fun in that, lets do this other tougher thing instead", they start looking at you cross eyed. But the nice thing about this sport is that there's no end to the learning. There are always new situations to attack, even on that same stream. And even in that one, you can keep working on perfecting it. Like coming up with a pattern that does EXACTLY what you intend it to do, then go test it! For instance, for this situation, I attempted to tie an emerger, cept, instead of CDC I used cork. Imagine a tiny wing of white cork, connected to a pheasant tail suspended by fishing line a quarter inch below. I thought it was a great idea. The downfall was that it spun terribly when casting and thus wasn't accurate, and it twisted the heck out of my tippet. Doh! Oh well, I'm still proud of the idea and still want to figure out a better way than attempting to float a nymph using grease and frog's fanny.
For instance, knowing this, in BWO hatch situations that don't bring up every fish in the dang stream, you can search out these types of locations and find more pods like that. When you find them and float a dun past them a few times perfectly and don't get a take, you should immediately question whether they're on duns or emergers. When they nail a sunken dry that should confirm it, and you can switch to a more effective pattern or technique to mimick that.
There's no feeling in the world like figuring it out. That's what this sport is about. And when you do, you will either catch or miss nearly every one of those fish in that pod in quick order. Then you'll go looking for another pod, and know where to focus for them.
As a piece of advice, when you get to that point, there's always one or two uncatchables in every pod like that. Maybe you stung em once already and they're a little shy. Or whatever. So if you quickly catch 3 or 4, don't spend the rest of the hatch on that last one. Go find another pod, catch 3 or 4 in short order, find another, catch 3 or 4 in short order, etc. I know, that's hard to do if it's crowded, every spot has a guy. But if it's not crowded, this is how you rack up numbers.
As another piece of advice, once you perfect it, at least for me, it gets boring! Now you need to figure out another hatch, or fish in a different situation. When you start telling your buddy, "yeah, we could catch a bunch on BWO's, but what's the fun in that, lets do this other tougher thing instead", they start looking at you cross eyed. But the nice thing about this sport is that there's no end to the learning. There are always new situations to attack, even on that same stream. And even in that one, you can keep working on perfecting it. Like coming up with a pattern that does EXACTLY what you intend it to do, then go test it! For instance, for this situation, I attempted to tie an emerger, cept, instead of CDC I used cork. Imagine a tiny wing of white cork, connected to a pheasant tail suspended by fishing line a quarter inch below. I thought it was a great idea. The downfall was that it spun terribly when casting and thus wasn't accurate, and it twisted the heck out of my tippet. Doh! Oh well, I'm still proud of the idea and still want to figure out a better way than attempting to float a nymph using grease and frog's fanny.
NewSal
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Awesome advice pcray, I appreciate it very much.
I know what you mean about figuring it out and it getting boring, I'm sure I'm not alone in this and I imagine this is how a lot of fly anglers got there start. Catching trout on spinners and bait just got boring, very boring, needed a new challenge, something more in-depth and that's where fly fishing comes in. It's almost not even relatable to spinner fishing, so much more that goes into it and I realize that you can go as deep into it as you allow yourself.
I could walk into the stream and swing some spinners and catch a dozen within the time that I catch 2 with my fly rod, but I couldn't be any happier.
I know what you mean about figuring it out and it getting boring, I'm sure I'm not alone in this and I imagine this is how a lot of fly anglers got there start. Catching trout on spinners and bait just got boring, very boring, needed a new challenge, something more in-depth and that's where fly fishing comes in. It's almost not even relatable to spinner fishing, so much more that goes into it and I realize that you can go as deep into it as you allow yourself.
I could walk into the stream and swing some spinners and catch a dozen within the time that I catch 2 with my fly rod, but I couldn't be any happier.
pcray1231
Well-known member
I think you'll find that once your a ways down the learning curve, fly fishing is more successful, not less, than spinning gear.
On average, anyway. The exception is truly deep water fishing where you need a lot of weight just to get down. They make sinking lines but IMO your in the realm of compensating for FF's weaknesses at that point.
But so long as you're playing in the
On average, anyway. The exception is truly deep water fishing where you need a lot of weight just to get down. They make sinking lines but IMO your in the realm of compensating for FF's weaknesses at that point.
But so long as you're playing in the
pcray1231
Well-known member
Here's the troutnut link for the Baetis genus. Your BWO's were some species within this, and they're all pretty similar. Troutnut is a great link to navigate around and learn hatches and their behaviors. Often the family and genus pages are more important to look at than the actual species page.
http://www.troutnut.com/hatch/180/Mayfly-Baetis-Blue-Winged-Olives
Note, under hatching behavior for this genus, there is this:
Fly fishermen often make the mistake of being "dun centric" in our topwater pursuits. Hence why dry fly fishing can be so frustrating. "I see them rising, I got the right bug, why won't they hit!". And then trying to find a "more exact" match. The match is fine in terms of looks. It's how it acts that matters... If they are eating stuff JUST under the surface, you'll struggle to get them to take something on top of the surface.
http://www.troutnut.com/hatch/180/Mayfly-Baetis-Blue-Winged-Olives
Note, under hatching behavior for this genus, there is this:
Fly fishermen often make the mistake of being "dun centric" in our topwater pursuits. Hence why dry fly fishing can be so frustrating. "I see them rising, I got the right bug, why won't they hit!". And then trying to find a "more exact" match. The match is fine in terms of looks. It's how it acts that matters... If they are eating stuff JUST under the surface, you'll struggle to get them to take something on top of the surface.
redietz
Well-known member
Since you're quoting troutnut about Baetis, here's a passage that somewhat contradicts what you said about the spinner fall happening after dark:
I've personally seen this happen mid-afternoon on more than one occasion. The OP could very well have seen ovipositing spinners.
Other than that nit, I fully agree with everything else you're written in this thread. Good advice.
I've personally seen this happen mid-afternoon on more than one occasion. The OP could very well have seen ovipositing spinners.
Other than that nit, I fully agree with everything else you're written in this thread. Good advice.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Fair enough. I've never run into Baetis spinners in heavy enough concentrations to fish. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Drunella variety BWO's, yes, but that's an entirely different ballgame. Totally different bug, just the same common name.
But the emerger thing is like 80% of the time I hit a Baetis hatch. The rises can be spotty and REAL difficult to see, and usually in side eddies. Most of the guys say they didn't see any risers all day, or only "sporadic", which is funny, cause when you focus in on a pod they seem to rise quite steadily, and I do quite well on rising fish. Just gotta know where to look, look there REAL close, and then use emergers. Often there's no rise ring at all, just a beak. And it's always in that nasty spot where you just can't get a decent drift, lol. Gotta get close, get your line over the current, and let it circle around an eddy or sometimes right on the current break.
The other 20% are those magical days where they hatch but can't get airborn, get washed into the main flow, and every fish in the stream starts taking duns, because, well, out in the current away from the hatching areas that's all they're seeing is duns. And everyone cleans up on those days.
Drunella variety BWO's, yes, but that's an entirely different ballgame. Totally different bug, just the same common name.
But the emerger thing is like 80% of the time I hit a Baetis hatch. The rises can be spotty and REAL difficult to see, and usually in side eddies. Most of the guys say they didn't see any risers all day, or only "sporadic", which is funny, cause when you focus in on a pod they seem to rise quite steadily, and I do quite well on rising fish. Just gotta know where to look, look there REAL close, and then use emergers. Often there's no rise ring at all, just a beak. And it's always in that nasty spot where you just can't get a decent drift, lol. Gotta get close, get your line over the current, and let it circle around an eddy or sometimes right on the current break.
The other 20% are those magical days where they hatch but can't get airborn, get washed into the main flow, and every fish in the stream starts taking duns, because, well, out in the current away from the hatching areas that's all they're seeing is duns. And everyone cleans up on those days.
NewSal
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Hey pcray..
Do you have any pictures or links to bwo emerger patterns that I could tie up?
Do you have any pictures or links to bwo emerger patterns that I could tie up?
pcray1231
Well-known member
Here's probably the most typical emerger type fly.
http://www.flytierspage.com/hwallace/cdc_bwo_emerger.htm
Though, I like the style of the below better. The straight CDC, as I said, seems to get waterlogged too easy and truly sink. The sort of parachute style keeps it suspended in the right place better, and the white tip for visibility to the angler.
Though, instead of in olive, I'd use PT colors.
http://www.flytierspage.com/hwallace/cdc_bwo_emerger.htm
Though, I like the style of the below better. The straight CDC, as I said, seems to get waterlogged too easy and truly sink. The sort of parachute style keeps it suspended in the right place better, and the white tip for visibility to the angler.
Though, instead of in olive, I'd use PT colors.
Attachments
pcray1231
Well-known member
Here's another, from a shop not far from you. They use muskrat fur for their emerger wings.
http://www.flyfishersparadise.com/fly-tying/baetis-emerger-bwo
The ones I attempt to tie are more like this:
http://www.garyborger.com/2011/05/25/parachute-floating-nymph-hendrickson/
But in size 18 on a curved caddis style hook, thinnest wire you can get.
http://www.flyfishersparadise.com/fly-tying/baetis-emerger-bwo
The ones I attempt to tie are more like this:
http://www.garyborger.com/2011/05/25/parachute-floating-nymph-hendrickson/
But in size 18 on a curved caddis style hook, thinnest wire you can get.
NewSal
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Nice Pcray thanks!
Here is another question for you..
Say If I'm fishing a stream with no rises and no hatches, nymphing with some general patterns like hares ears and PT's, and not catching a thing, what would you say most likely is the problem? Ive ran into this a lot and have been skunked multiple times.
Would you say Im just not presenting the flys correctly or would you think the flys themselves are the problem.
A lot of times I'm not catching anything and I get frustrated and start changing flys left and right and it becomes un-productive.
Would you say that a general PT or hares ear should catch atleast a single fish in pretty much any condition if fished correctly? Or does the fly itself play a more significant role?
Here is another question for you..
Say If I'm fishing a stream with no rises and no hatches, nymphing with some general patterns like hares ears and PT's, and not catching a thing, what would you say most likely is the problem? Ive ran into this a lot and have been skunked multiple times.
Would you say Im just not presenting the flys correctly or would you think the flys themselves are the problem.
A lot of times I'm not catching anything and I get frustrated and start changing flys left and right and it becomes un-productive.
Would you say that a general PT or hares ear should catch atleast a single fish in pretty much any condition if fished correctly? Or does the fly itself play a more significant role?
MKern
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You are either not fishing deep enough or not fishing productive water.
Learning to read the water and where fish should be is the best thing you can learn for trout fishing in PA.
You can literally be fishing inches to the right or left of a fish, but the current of the water is enough of an obstacle for the fish it will simply pass up your fly.
Also, learning how to get your flies to drift as close to dead or realistic leads to more strikes.
Learning to read the water and where fish should be is the best thing you can learn for trout fishing in PA.
You can literally be fishing inches to the right or left of a fish, but the current of the water is enough of an obstacle for the fish it will simply pass up your fly.
Also, learning how to get your flies to drift as close to dead or realistic leads to more strikes.
NewSal
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That's what I'm thinking, depth and presentation are probably my problems, I'm just hoping that a general nymph pattern will work if presented properly.
I'm fairly good at reading waters, I've been trout fishing for a very long time with spinning gear so my water reading is actually pretty good IMO, I know where the fish are but trying to get my flys to the depth and presenting them realistically are my problems I think
I'm fairly good at reading waters, I've been trout fishing for a very long time with spinning gear so my water reading is actually pretty good IMO, I know where the fish are but trying to get my flys to the depth and presenting them realistically are my problems I think
NewSal
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I think that's one of my frustrations, I'm fishing the same section of stream that I KNOW I can catch fish on with a spinner, because I've done it a hundred times, and I'm sitting there throwing these flys at them with no luck and I know I could swing a spinner through there a handful of times and hook up no problem...
sorry for the rant .. just getting frustrated!! haha!
sorry for the rant .. just getting frustrated!! haha!
pcray1231
Well-known member
To start, there are times where it's just tough. For anyone using anything. The richer the stream, the more amount of time this is the case. As more food means there is less need to feed optimistically. They can afford to just shut off.
That said, the difference between good and bad fishermen is presentation, not flies. Are you fishing productive water, getting it at the right depth, getting a good drift, etc.
The caveat is fly choice can help presentation. Just like with emergers in the previously discussed situation. They'll take a dun pattern or a nymph, in the wrong color, a size off, etc, if you can get it to dead drift just under the surface. But a pattern designed to be fished that way may make it easier to do that. Another example would be gold beadheads, flashy wire, copper johns, and the like. Proponents think the flash attracts fish. Others think it spooks them. Both may be right in different situations. But for the guys who like them, they may often do better with them not because fish prefer it, but because flashy metal is still metal, has weight, and thus they are fishing deeper and actually getting it to the fish. Another guy may be getting it deep enough without that help, and thus find he does better with more natural, subdued colors.
The point is that I don't think fish get all that picky about what they eat. I don't think they're really line shy, or all the other things that beginning fishermen worry about. I do think they get accustomed to how food is coming at them, and focus in on that to the exclusion of other things. If you can get a cigarette butt on a rope to ACT like what they're eating, and put it WHERE they're eating it, they'll take it. So when you think about fly choice, leaders, tippets, etc, keep in mind that it's the presentation you're trying to adjust. Use all tools at your disposal to achieve that.
That said, the difference between good and bad fishermen is presentation, not flies. Are you fishing productive water, getting it at the right depth, getting a good drift, etc.
The caveat is fly choice can help presentation. Just like with emergers in the previously discussed situation. They'll take a dun pattern or a nymph, in the wrong color, a size off, etc, if you can get it to dead drift just under the surface. But a pattern designed to be fished that way may make it easier to do that. Another example would be gold beadheads, flashy wire, copper johns, and the like. Proponents think the flash attracts fish. Others think it spooks them. Both may be right in different situations. But for the guys who like them, they may often do better with them not because fish prefer it, but because flashy metal is still metal, has weight, and thus they are fishing deeper and actually getting it to the fish. Another guy may be getting it deep enough without that help, and thus find he does better with more natural, subdued colors.
The point is that I don't think fish get all that picky about what they eat. I don't think they're really line shy, or all the other things that beginning fishermen worry about. I do think they get accustomed to how food is coming at them, and focus in on that to the exclusion of other things. If you can get a cigarette butt on a rope to ACT like what they're eating, and put it WHERE they're eating it, they'll take it. So when you think about fly choice, leaders, tippets, etc, keep in mind that it's the presentation you're trying to adjust. Use all tools at your disposal to achieve that.
NewSal
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Thanks pcray ,
Your awefully good at explaining things and are obviously a wealth of fishing information, I appriciate it.
Your awefully good at explaining things and are obviously a wealth of fishing information, I appriciate it.
