Fingerling trout stocking schedule 2023

[Fish Sticks]

Let's see, the LJR was stocked w/ BT for who knows how long from the 1800's on. PFBC stocked fingerlings for how many years until somewhat recently? Private enterprises have been stocking Spruce for how long? There is still private, and co-op stocking of private & PFBC sourced BT in the LJR to this day. How long has the Frankstown Br been stocked?

Do you really think the first batch of fish straight from Germany stocked in the 1800's have maintained genetic purity through all that? I've watched stocked browns spawning in Spruce. Do you think they aren't successful? Or do their offspring just stay in the pool they hatched in and never mix with fish in the LJR?

I just don't get this. So what if you're right? They're brown trout in America, not some rare endangered native species. Who cares if they were stocked in 1886, 1881, 1892, 1903, 1923, 1945, 1968, or last week? What's the difference?

Ironically in PA only one of these pictures is considered ridiculous, despite both being invasive examples of domesticated charismatic Mega fauna. Doesn’t matter if you pay Joe Exotic or Donny beavers, same thing.

 

[CRB]

"I like to fish for wild Brown trout they fight better than stunted bookies." anonymous
n the streams of Pennsylvania.

 

[Fish Sticks]

"I like to fish for wild Brown trout they fight better than stunted bookies." anonymous
n the streams of Pennsylvania.

So does a musky so why fish for stunted browns? And the brookies are stunted because of the brown trouts presence to a degree. We see faster growth rates with removal.

 

[troutbert]

I've talked to numerous people who caught big brown trout and lots of them in the Little Juniata River in the years before fingerlings were stocked.

Back in those days the river flowed brown and smelly from discharges from the paper mill in Tyrone, so it was not stocked, and the vast majority of fishermen thought it was a fishless stream. Except the hard core fishermen who knew stuff. The brown trout were there.

The same situation existed in the Frankstown Branch. When I first fished there it was still brown and smelly from the paper mill in Roaring Spring. Stocking was only done above the discharge, not in the miles of river below that. But the wild browns were there.

The same situation existed in the stretch of Clarion River below the paper mill in Johnsonburg. It also was brown and smelly and people assumed it was dead, but the wild browns were there.

In the early 1990s or thereabouts, I explored the Little Juniata River starting at the bridge near the train station in Tyrone and fishing way upstream. This upper section was considered too polluted and too warm by most fishermen to hold trout. Fingerlings were not stocked there. There were wild brown trout from downtown Tyrone up past Bellwood and up at least as far as the confluence of Sandy Run near Pinecroft.

There are wild browns in many tributaries, not just in Spruce Creek. There have been a couple of major fish kills from chemical spills in the Little Juniata. But there have been wild browns all through the watershed for well over a century, so the populations rebound after these kills.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I've talked to numerous people who caught big brown trout and lots of them in the Little Juniata River in the years before fingerlings were stocked.

Back in those days the river flowed brown and smelly from discharges from the paper mill in Tyrone, so it was not stocked, and the vast majority of fishermen thought it was a fishless stream. Except the hard core fishermen who knew stuff. The brown trout were there.

The same situation existed in the Frankstown Branch. When I first fished there it was still brown and smelly from the paper mill in Roaring Spring. Stocking was only done above the discharge, not in the miles of river below that. But the wild browns were there.

The same situation existed in the stretch of Clarion River below the paper mill in Johnsonburg. It also was brown and smelly and people assumed it was dead, but the wild browns were there.

In the early 1990s or thereabouts, I explored the Little Juniata River starting at the bridge near the train station in Tyrone and fishing way upstream. This upper section was considered too polluted and too warm by most fishermen to hold trout. Fingerlings were not stocked there. There were wild brown trout from downtown Tyrone up past Bellwood and up at least as far as the confluence of Sandy Run near Pinecroft.

There are wild browns in many tributaries, not just in Spruce Creek. There have been a couple of major fish kills from chemical spills in the Little Juniata. But there have been wild browns all through the watershed for well over a century, so the populations rebound after these kills.

Yea there is wild trout made every time a hatchery fish does a drive by on redd and sprays its milt everywhere. People have been throwing these things in with milk cans, chucking them off trains(Lil J has many train bridges), and dumping buckets forever. I would imagine the little J has had wild brown fish since after the first few years of stockings like you said. But the stockings kept coming in trib streams and up stream areas above the mentioned pollution I would imagine.

As silver fox said it’s irrelevant because there is no genetic customization to the environment/habitat, PH/geology, hydrology, or other species present so stocked fingerling or wild your not gaining or losing adapted genes that never existed in the first place unless your talking about adapted to europe. I assume hatchery fish from spruce and coops stocking lil J interbreed and those browns are hatchery muts genetically even if wild. One can say with almost absolute certainty no pure “strains” are left.

In summation fingerling, wild brown to me fishing its the same thing because the hatchery really has a behavioral effect n the adults for sure but genetically if theres introgression ontop of previously introgressed fish who gives a hoot, ya know? The reason I don’t like fingerlings is because its adding invasive species that harm native ones not because I am worried about non existent genetic purity in the brown fish.

 

[troutbert]

The reason I don’t like fingerlings is because its adding invasive species that harm native ones not because I am worried about non existent genetic purity in the brown fish.

The modern day fingerling stockings in the Little Juniata didn't add invasive species because they were already there, and have been for well over a century.

You can't establish a population of brown trout where a brown trout population already exists.

Stocking fingerling brown trout over an established brown trout population has about the same effect as stocking bass fingerlings in a lake full of bass, or carp fingerlings in a waterway full of carp.

 

[jifigz]

So does a musky so why fish for stunted browns? And the brookies are stunted because of the brown trouts presence to a degree. We see faster growth rates with removal.

For the size they attain muskies fight like garbage.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The modern day fingerling stockings in the Little Juniata didn't add invasive species because they were already there, and have been for well over a century.

You can't establish a population of brown trout where a brown trout population already exists.

Stocking fingerling brown trout over an established brown trout population has about the same effect as stocking bass fingerlings in a lake full of bass, or carp fingerlings in a waterway full of carp.

Yes but can increase negative interactions to other species from invasive species with adding more of them where a population already exists.

 

[PennKev]

I, for one, welcome our brown trout overlords.

 

[silverfox]

I've talked to numerous people who caught big brown trout and lots of them in the Little Juniata River in the years before fingerlings were stocked.

Back in those days the river flowed brown and smelly from discharges from the paper mill in Tyrone, so it was not stocked, and the vast majority of fishermen thought it was a fishless stream. Except the hard core fishermen who knew stuff. The brown trout were there.

The same situation existed in the Frankstown Branch. When I first fished there it was still brown and smelly from the paper mill in Roaring Spring. Stocking was only done above the discharge, not in the miles of river below that. But the wild browns were there.

The same situation existed in the stretch of Clarion River below the paper mill in Johnsonburg. It also was brown and smelly and people assumed it was dead, but the wild browns were there.

In the early 1990s or thereabouts, I explored the Little Juniata River starting at the bridge near the train station in Tyrone and fishing way upstream. This upper section was considered too polluted and too warm by most fishermen to hold trout. Fingerlings were not stocked there. There were wild brown trout from downtown Tyrone up past Bellwood and up at least as far as the confluence of Sandy Run near Pinecroft.

There are wild browns in many tributaries, not just in Spruce Creek. There have been a couple of major fish kills from chemical spills in the Little Juniata. But there have been wild browns all through the watershed for well over a century, so the populations rebound after these kills.

None of that changes the fact that brown trout are brown trout, and when they were stocked is irrelevant. They’re all the descendants of stocked trout. Is a 14th generation wild brown trout worth less than a 134th generation brown trout? Do you think the only brown trout that have reproduced in the wild are the ones stocked in 1883? Are the ones from 1883 better than the ones from 1885? The eggs Von Behr shipped were stripped from hatchery brood stock in Germany. What generation were they? F2? F3? F10?

Those tribs upstream of Tyrone that are unimpaired other than drinking water reservoirs have been stocked for a long time. When did stocked brown trout become incapable of breeding with the existing wild browns where they’re introduced ? 1902? 1935? 1968?

 

[PennKev]

When did stocked brown trout become incapable of breeding with the existing wild browns where they’re introduced ? 1902? 1935? 1968?

When did the U.S. change from an agricultural society to an urban society? 1890? 1930? 1960? Can you pinpoint a year? Of course not, but you also can't deny the country changed. Arguing that you can't pinpoint a year where stocked trout became thoroughly domesticated and unfit for survival and reproduction in the wild does not mean that isn't the case.

Also, this question seems odd coming from the same camp that promotes repopulating brook trout with local native strains that may be better adapted for local conditions. If you think genetics matter in reestablishing healthy native fish populations, then they matter for reproduction of non-native species as well as far as I am concerned.

 

[troutbert]

None of that changes the fact that brown trout are brown trout, and when they were stocked is irrelevant. They’re all the descendants of stocked trout. Is a 14th generation wild brown trout worth less than a 134th generation brown trout? Do you think the only brown trout that have reproduced in the wild are the ones stocked in 1883? Are the ones from 1883 better than the ones from 1885? The eggs Von Behr shipped were stripped from hatchery brood stock in Germany. What generation were they? F2? F3? F10?

Those tribs upstream of Tyrone that are unimpaired other than drinking water reservoirs have been stocked for a long time. When did stocked brown trout become incapable of breeding with the existing wild browns where they’re introduced ? 1902? 1935? 1968?

You haven't refuted anything that I wrote. You've just changed the topic. You're arguing against positions that I never took.

Facts should come first. Both Mike and you are claiming (for different reasons) that modern day stockings of brown trout have established populations of brown trout in the Little Juniata River.

You are both wrong. The population was already established in the 1800s and they have been there all along, in both the main river and tribs. Throwing brown trout fingerlings on top of an established brown trout population does essentially nothing.

If someone stocked baby carp where there was a big carp population, or stocked lots of baby bass where there was a big bass population, it would be a waste of money and time. It wouldn't establish a population or increase the population, except very temporarily. The populations increase to their carrying capacity, then that is it. You can't increase the population higher than that by stocking juvenile fish.

The studies done on the LIttle Juniata SHOWED that finglering survival was extremely low.

 

[Mike]

You haven't refuted anything that I wrote. You've just changed the topic. You're arguing against positions that I never took.

Facts should come first. Both Mike and you are claiming (for different reasons) that modern day stockings of brown trout have established populations of brown trout in the Little Juniata River.

You are both wrong. The population was already established in the 1800s and they have been there all along, in both the main river and tribs. Throwing brown trout fingerlings on top of an established brown trout population does essentially nothing.

If someone stocked baby carp where there was a big carp population, or stocked lots of baby bass where there was a big bass population, it would be a waste of money and time. It wouldn't establish a population or increase the population, except very temporarily. The populations increase to their carrying capacity, then that is it. You can't increase the population higher than that by stocking juvenile fish.

The studies done on the LIttle Juniata SHOWED that finglering survival was extremely low.

That’s not what I said. Stating it another way, the fingerlings supplemented an existing depressed or recovering population and based on the frequency of occurrence of fin-clipped fish in the survey the fingerling survival was good. Furthermore, I was trying to make clear that the population today would most likely be the same today if fingerlings had not been stocked. In my view, the difference that the fingerling stockings made was at best to accelerate the development of a decent, fishable population during the time period that the “natural” population was depressed or beginning to grow. That takes you back to the 1970’s and for however long those stockings continued to the point that the population numbers no longer benefitted from additional stocked fingerlings.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Brook trout genetics are adapted to this continent. Brown trout genetics have been shaped by millions of years in Europe with organisms that evolved there not here.

Yes genetics matter in every animal but there is not heritage genetics to protect in the united states since genetically speaking …..they have no heritage here. Does that make sense?

 

[Fish Sticks]

You haven't refuted anything that I wrote. You've just changed the topic. You're arguing against positions that I never took.

Facts should come first. Both Mike and you are claiming (for different reasons) that modern day stockings of brown trout have established populations of brown trout in the Little Juniata River.

You are both wrong. The population was already established in the 1800s and they have been there all along, in both the main river and tribs. Throwing brown trout fingerlings on top of an established brown trout population does essentially nothing.

If someone stocked baby carp where there was a big carp population, or stocked lots of baby bass where there was a big bass population, it would be a waste of money and time. It wouldn't establish a population or increase the population, except very temporarily. The populations increase to their carrying capacity, then that is it. You can't increase the population higher than that by stocking juvenile fish.

The studies done on the LIttle Juniata SHOWED that finglering survival was extremely low.

I think silver foxes point is you start with hatchery genetics in 1800’s you end with them now if you keep adding hatchery fish. Have you ever heard of “founder effect”?

 

[silverfox]

When did the U.S. change from an agricultural society to an urban society? 1890? 1930? 1960? Can you pinpoint a year? Of course not, but you also can't deny the country changed. Arguing that you can't pinpoint a year where stocked trout became thoroughly domesticated and unfit for survival and reproduction in the wild does not mean that isn't the case.

Also, this question seems odd coming from the same camp that promotes repopulating brook trout with local native strains that may be better adapted for local conditions. If you think genetics matter in reestablishing healthy native fish populations, then they matter for reproduction of non-native species as well as far as I am concerned.

So you also believe that a hatchery-born brown trout cannot and have not reproduce(d) in the wild? That somehow these magical 1883 fish have maintained a perfect, untainted, pure genetic line? What about the Scottish fish? Have they also somehow maintained purity and are therefore more valuable? They can't reproduce with the German fish or any stocked domesticated fish?

I don't know what brook trout have to do with this, but since you brought it up... There is a mountain of difference between using native source stock with locally adapted genetics (created over thousands of years vs 134) to reinforce or restore a population of native fish and choosing which flavor of a nonnative fish is preferred.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So you also believe that a hatchery-born brown trout cannot and have not reproduce(d) in the wild? That somehow these magical 1883 fish have maintained a perfect, untainted, pure genetic line? What about the Scottish fish? Have they also somehow maintained purity and are therefore more valuable? They can't reproduce with the German fish or any stocked domesticated fish?

I don't know what brook trout have to do with this, but since you brought it up... There is a mountain of difference between using native source stock with locally adapted genetics (created over thousands of years vs 134) to reinforce or restore a population of native fish and choosing which flavor of a nonnative fish is preferred.

Yup and whats so ironic about talking about genetics is brown trout in many pa streams don’t really have to survive on their own genetic merit. If they blinked out and got extirpated it doesn’t matter one of schuyllkill county headwaters vibert box brown fish or slate run brown trout club fish can migrate 10-20-30 miles and if you get a spawning pair their back again.

Brown trout owe the majority of their success to human charity(stocking, hydroelectric dams/tailwaters, economies built on putting them on pedestal) in north American, not any one strains genetics.

 

[silverfox]

You haven't refuted anything that I wrote. You've just changed the topic. You're arguing against positions that I never took.

Facts should come first. Both Mike and you are claiming (for different reasons) that modern day stockings of brown trout have established populations of brown trout in the Little Juniata River.

You are both wrong. The population was already established in the 1800s and they have been there all along, in both the main river and tribs. Throwing brown trout fingerlings on top of an established brown trout population does essentially nothing.

If someone stocked baby carp where there was a big carp population, or stocked lots of baby bass where there was a big bass population, it would be a waste of money and time. It wouldn't establish a population or increase the population, except very temporarily. The populations increase to their carrying capacity, then that is it. You can't increase the population higher than that by stocking juvenile fish.

The studies done on the LIttle Juniata SHOWED that finglering survival was extremely low.

If you're not arguing that the 1883 stock has somehow remained insulated ever since they were introduced, then you're simply stating the obvious that some of those populations have existed since 1883. Of course they have. My point is that they've also very likely been mixed with multiple other fish of various stages of domestication. Which leads to the question of why does it matter what generation of stocked brown trout exists?

You're suggesting that a population of introduced species from a limited source stock reaches the system's carrying capacity the same as a natural system would evolve. That ignores issues within the introduced species that might stunt the population size (bottlenecks/founder effects) even though the system could support a larger bio-load. i.e., why it might be ok to supplement a wild population with stocked fingerlings. Or simply because the population is too young, or competing species prevent that species from reaching a desired population level, or the effects of stocking (harvest/incidental mortality). Or that the introduction of the species disrupted ecosystem balance resulting in booms/busts of the introduced species' population size.

The fingerling stocking may have benefited the existing population by introducing more genetic variation to a stunted population. Not all hatchery loci would be bad, and not all locus passed on to offspring would be some negative domesticated trait. It's not so simple as filling a candy jar with jelly beans and saying the jar can't hold any more. It's a dynamic system filled with living creatures that all reproduce and have an effect on one another.

 

[silverfox]

Yup and whats so ironic about talking about genetics is brown trout in many pa streams don’t really have to survive on their own genetic merit. If they blinked out and got extirpated it doesn’t matter one of schuyllkill county headwaters vibert box brown fish or slate run brown trout club fish can migrate 10-20-30 miles and if you get a spawning pair their back again.

Brown trout owe the majority of their success to human charity(stocking, hydroelectric dams/tailwaters, economies built on putting them on pedestal) in north American, not any one strains genetics.

Right. Talking about brown trout as if every single one of them isn’t the result of stocking. That’s my point.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

You haven't refuted anything that I wrote. You've just changed the topic. You're arguing against positions that I never took.

Facts should come first. Both Mike and you are claiming (for different reasons) that modern day stockings of brown trout have established populations of brown trout in the Little Juniata River.

You are both wrong.

That’s not what I said.

No one knows what anyone is saying in this thread.😂