Financial Troubles May Loom for Fish and Boat Commission

[DaveS]

K-bob, if you are going to make such plane simple rationale, your never going to make it in Government!

They obviously need to look at possible cost reduction, as well as a moderate, graduated price increase. But I think a lot of really good fishing goes under-utilized, especially WW. And there is a marketing issue with that. "LOOK! you and your kids could have a whole afternoon of fun with these bass and panfish for just a few dollars!"

Or something like that, I'm obviously not a marketing guy, or a finance guy either, so maybe I'm wrong there too.

 

[BrookieChaser]

afishinado wrote:

phiendWMD wrote:
It seems unfair to decrease the cost of a license and increase the cost of the trout stamp to me. Why should trout anglers be expected to pay more when everyone else is paying less?
I'm not opposed to paying a little more, many other people have stated in the past a fishing license and trout stamp are a good deal compared to other activities. I just feel everyone who utilizes the resources the PFBC provide should contribute. Maybe PA needs a bass stamp.

I read that the cost of the trout stocking program breaks down to $17 per licensed angler. The current cost of the trout stamp with fees is $10. Right now the bass anglers/non trout anglers are paying $7 of their $22 license fee to the trout program and never fishing for them.

The proposal in the article was to raise the trout stamp by $8. That would more or less fund the current trout stocking program 100%.

Something has to be done, but there are no easy answers. Cut stocking and license sales/revenue go down. Raise license fees and license sales/revenue go down. Do both at the same time and.......you see the problem.

If that argument of the poor bass fishers paying for trout is in play.
I paid $10 for a trout stamp to be able to fish for wild trout. Using that argument, I was forced to monetarily support a program that's working against what I think is best for the resource that I target. But, I'm a minority in the angling community of PA, it's the price to play so I pay it.

I did catch one stocked trout this year... I snapped its neck immediately and chucked it on the bank.

The stocking program is such a money drain... that's easy, quit stocking and practice "resource first".

 

[TimRobinsin]

did I actually read that someone thinks the PFBC is not a conservation organization it is a business?

let me ask: how long does a business stay in business with a failing product? how long does a business stay in business when people steal the service? how long will a business continue to operate when it is understaffed and unable to perform it's most basic functions?

The PFBC is NOT a business, it IS a state sanctioned independent administration that has authority over our waterways. As such, the PFBC is charged with the duty to "protect, conserve, and enhance the Commonwealth’s aquatic resources and provide fishing and boating opportunities." or at least that's just what their website says. Thank God it's not a business!

Read that as: They are our tool to improve fishing in our state. think about it like a big fishing club. however, just like any fishing club or hunting club you're going to have differences and expenses and the only way it stays together and improves is if hard decisions are made together.

clearly we are at one of those points. we need to work with the PFBC to suggest some good strategies to get them on track. as per always, sitting on an online forum and riding the crab train does nothing.

Reducing costs by "strategic stocking" is a start. promoting wild reproduction by reducing competition has worked in other states, it can work in ours.

Partnering with more Co-op nurseries is another. a great example is the work that the PFBC does in Erie with 4-CU. The fishing up there would not be near what it is without the joint efforts of both the PFBC and 4-CU.

increasing the license fee is going to happen and you are going to see more folks fishing without one. And guess what? nothing is going to happen to these crazy rebels because there is not enough money to pay for anymore WCO's to enforce. In fact, as this article suggests, you will probably see fewer WCO's because they will be furloughed.

So then you are going to have a growing trend of fewer folks buying a license because they can get away with it which will lead to less money, less fish, less fishing opportunities, and more pollution. yes, more pollution. Just imagine the amount of cases of natty ice cans and dilapidated folding chairs you will find strewn about the once stocked creeks of PA. It will be a veritable stock-ocalypse.

all joking aside, there will be natural repercussion's to anything PFBC does but I would ask the reader that has made it this far to consider the repercussion's of a failing PFBC. Make no mistake, I have seen the writing on the wall since I first started following HB1576 and previous attempts by political special interest to "reign in" the FBC. the PFBC is under siege and there are many in Harrisburg that want to see the PFBC under the IRRC process and under the thumb of politicians not science.

it appears they have their work cut out for them. the PFBC won the last time because the special interest's were foolish enough to try to fight them on scientific ground which does not provide the most firm foundation for irresponsible, irrational, and illogical arguments.

this time, however, you might just see some major changes coming to the PFBC if they can't get their fiscal house in order. here's hoping the best.

-ps- I just PCrayed myself.

 

[PocketWater]

Get rid of pensions for government employees.

 

[TimRobinsin]

^boom! problem solved everyone! wow, it makes so much sense. that's like a magic bullet. why has no one ever thought of this before!?

hey, while we're at it we should make all gubment employees work for minimum wage becasue, you know, they should just be glad to have a job.

 

[TimRobinsin]

here's the deal: do you want walmart or do you want whole foods? do you want cheap or do you want what works? cuz if you want what works, your going to have to pay for it, one way or the other.

and frankly, i like the idea of a public organization that has to answer to me and my fellow pennsylvanians rather than the idea of a "conservation" organization that will tell me what is good for me according to where their next pipeline needs to go through.

you want to treat state employees like POS you're going to end up with a POS PFBC and then you'll be like WTF, why is my state like a giant urban walmart complete with trash littering the congested, pee stained parking lots and aisle's?

You get what you pay for, it's time we upgrade.

 

[jifigz]

I'm just going to keep fishing. If things crumble, I'll be fishing. If the license goes to $100 a year, I'll buy one and keep fishing. If they severely cut down on stocked fish, fantastic! I'll find the abundance of wild trout in my area (which are all I truly care about anyway) and the warm water species and keep fishing. If people get upset and don't buy licenses and stop fishing due to the cutting of stocked fish, great! I'll have even more water to fish with less crowds. Government organizations are by nature innefficient. There are too many hoops to jump through to make anything happen. Truth of the matter is, no one here really knows or understands all of the problems nor do they understand the inner working of the government and who all needs to be satisfied to make changes and what changes are ethically and monetarily sound. We just don't know. So, let's just keep fishing. I'm sure that there is a great solution but maybe there isn't.

 

[McSneek]

BrookieChaser wrote:

I did catch one stocked trout this year... I snapped its neck immediately and chucked it on the bank.

Did that make you feel good?

 

[McSneek]

TimRobinsin wrote:
here's the deal: do you want walmart or do you want whole foods? do you want cheap or do you want what works? cuz if you want what works, your going to have to pay for it, one way or the other.

and frankly, i like the idea of a public organization that has to answer to me and my fellow pennsylvanians rather than the idea of a "conservation" organization that will tell me what is good for me according to where their next pipeline needs to go through.

you want to treat state employees like POS you're going to end up with a POS PFBC and then you'll be like WTF, why is my state like a giant urban walmart complete with trash littering the congested, pee stained parking lots and aisle's?

You get what you pay for, it's time we upgrade.

So your suggestion is to increase compensation and benefits for State employees so we get Whole Foods? State employee benefits are already well above what your "Average Joe" is getting and we are far from Whole Foods quality.

It's absurd to think that transitioning State employees to something like a defined contribution plan will create a "giant urban Walmart complete with trash littering the congested, pee stained parking lots and aisle's."

 

[PocketWater]

You think every company that doesn't offer pensions is a garbage company?

 

[wildtrout2]

jifigz wrote:
I'm just going to keep fishing. If things crumble, I'll be fishing. If the license goes to $100 a year, I'll buy one and keep fishing. If they severely cut down on stocked fish, fantastic! I'll find the abundance of wild trout in my area (which are all I truly care about anyway) and the warm water species and keep fishing. If people get upset and don't buy licenses and stop fishing due to the cutting of stocked fish, great! I'll have even more water to fish with less crowds. Government organizations are by nature inefficient. There are too many hoops to jump through to make anything happen. Truth of the matter is, no one here really knows or understands all of the problems nor do they understand the inner working of the government and who all needs to be satisfied to make changes and what changes are ethically and monetarily sound. We just don't know. So, let's just keep fishing. I'm sure that there is a great solution but maybe there isn't.

This hits the nail on the head right here! I couldn't agree more.

 

[CRB]

401k with 4% match like the rest of the working class.

 

[Chaz]

The pensioners need to be moved to state funded pensions or to retirement accounts. All State Employees current or former need to be moved or the Commonwealth will go bankrupt. It's all part of a bigger problem than just the PFBC.
Fully 25% of the Commonwealth budget is pensions. Either move them or give them a 1 time lump sum payment, this cannot go on as it is now.

 

[BrookieChaser]

McSneek wrote:

BrookieChaser wrote:

I did catch one stocked trout this year... I snapped its neck immediately and chucked it on the bank.

Did that make you feel good?

Indifferent. It needed done.

 

[PocketWater]

The life expectency of men went from 65.6 in 1950 to 76 in 2014. It is more than likely going to continue to rise with advances in medicine and technology.

 

[BrianMyers67]

Get rid of the trout stamp all together , why do we have one anyway? Trout are stocked across the state, may as well just raise the cost of the basic license to include the cost of the stamp. Take away the choice and add a little income from those that normally wouldn't buy a stamp. If they have a problem with it , let them find another hobby. Neither my brother nor myself have intentionally gone trout fishing in years but we both still buy a stamp. I just consider it part of the cost of a license and on those rare occasions I do catch a trout ( stupid fish don't know they shouldn't be in warm water) I could keep it should I wish to do so and I don't keep anything.

 

[TimRobinsin]

in regards to pensions. Many state employees would never have gone to work for the state had it not been for benefits like this. we made a promise to these people when we hired them as a state, it is our duty to honor this promise.

as for the PFBC budget, it's pretty clear that running the agency is not going to get any cheaper. I think this is an opportunity to implement some creative solutions to solve the fiscal issues and steer the PFBC in a more sustainable direction.

 

[salmonoid]

TimRobinsin wrote:
in regards to pensions. Many state employees would never have gone to work for the state had it not been for benefits like this. we made a promise to these people when we hired them as a state, it is our duty to honor this promise.

as for the PFBC budget, it's pretty clear that running the agency is not going to get any cheaper. I think this is an opportunity to implement some creative solutions to solve the fiscal issues and steer the PFBC in a more sustainable direction.

I don't think we should touch existing employee pension benefits. They are a burgeoning financial burden, but the state Supreme Court has already decided that they are guaranteed by the state constitution, so unless someone is able to successfully argue and overturn that decision, good luck in dealing with existing employees and retirees.

But, what you are seeing financially with the PFBC is a microcosm of what is looming for state and local governments that have pensions and which do not reform retirement options for future employees. Just like Social Security, the current state of pensions is just one big Ponzi scheme and with a shrinking workforce, the unfunded obligations will continue to balloon, because there is just not enough workers paying in to prop the whole thing up. Have a look see at the country of Greece to see how this will all play out in the future, right here in the US of A.

The PFBC only has two options to deal with future shortfalls - increase revenue, or decrease expenses. The pension obligation is fixed or will continue to grow (if not reformed), so cost savings will have to come elsewhere and I don't think there is enough trimming that can occur to offset the pension costs. And there's only so much revenue that can be extracted from increasing licenses and fees.

The only solution is quite frankly to suck it up for the short to medium turn, and get pension reform passed at all the levels it is needed. There will be a huge hurdle to get over until all current employees and retirees who are or will draw a pension pass away. But at least there would be light at the end of the tunnel. As it stands now, legislators just continue to kick the can down the road.

This is not really a trout or license thing. The problems lie much deeper than that. Raising license fees is just a scheme to push the problem down the road for the PFBC.

 

[JackM]

"in regards to pensions. Many state employees would never have gone to work for the state had it not been for benefits like this. we made a promise to these people when we hired them as a state, it is our duty to honor this promise. "

I have had two government jobs. I cannot say I joined for the benefits including pension. I can say that the total compensation package probably informed my choice to remain employed, and each term of employment, both I and my employer renewed our commitment to one another through a compensation pact.

Anyone working private sector for typically higher actual wages, than public sector employees, are you not free to negotiate better pension or make your own investments, protected and enhanced by IRS rules, as they are?

 

[tomitrout]

If only there was a way for the state to increase revenues to cover these expenses, it's too bad nobody could've predicted this....