Did I Do the Right Thing

[Will]

MKern: What you really did with this post, intentionally or not, was give the board a vague scenario that allowed each poster to show his own biases. For those who like to think of themselves as following a kind of gentleman's code of honor, your inclusion of the "old family friend" part was understandably a lightning rod (I suspected you meant something more like "former" or "one time" friend, but you were not very clear initially). Your assumptions about the severe enforcement they might face gave some of the more paranoid among us a chance to spew dire (and unsubstantiated) warnings about the environmental police state. Some folks got to work in their tough-guy credentials along the way. And what exactly you meant by digging out the stream bed seems to depend on the degree of the reader's environmentalist bent. It was evidently either a little bathtub-sized hole or something done with a bulldozer, depending on who was reading it. But, as some posters have pointed out already, you did ask for it. You probably would have generated less controvesy if you had included in your first post the facts you added later, but the reading would not have been as interesting.

 

[ian_brown]

I disagree with the majority; you did the right and courageous thing. These people had a history of disregarding regulations protecting wildlife. They were abusing the privilege of leasing a cabin on public lands, and you tried to talk to them before you called the authorities.

You did the right thing, and you did it with integrity. Personally, I have no sympathy for anyone who would dig out a streambed on public land, and I hope they lose the lease so it can go to someone who will be a decent steward. I’m surprised that so many people are chastising you for protecting a wild trout stream on state land.

 

[MKern]

Farmer Dave,

Your the most pompous person of this board with you holier than anthing attitude. Who gave you the right to barade and judge my integrity.
In my oppinion get off your high horse and talk with some respect. By the way some people like GRAFITE (not plastic) rods because it's 2007, not 1800.

 

[ryanh]

Will wrote:
MKern: What you really did with this post, intentionally or not, was give the board a vague scenario that allowed each poster to show his own biases.

Will,
Who elses bias would we show but our own? Do I have a problem w/ MKern? Absolutely not. In fact I hope to meet him at the next jam. My whole point was that all of us bend the rules in our daily lives somewhere. Not all people's lives revolve around trout (like ours do). It may be hard for them to see the potential damage of their actions. Especially when the state does similar practices.

I don't think that I was being paranoid when it comes to confiscatory power of the state. If MKern's friend got caught popping a deer out of season he could loose anything used in commiting the crime. This includes gun, truck, freezer. They fine you BY THE DAY for some environmental infractions. I would get wiped out pretty quick.

I am by no means an advocate for these things but I personally would not be able to turn in one of my own.

 

[ryanh]

maybe my dumb a$$ should learn how to use the quote button.

 

[Bruno]

MKern wrote:
Farmer Dave,

Who gave you the right to barade and judge my integrity. .

You pretty much did open yourself up to this sort of judgement. Your going to have to deal with it.

 

[JackM]

MKern, now that you have explained the situation more fully, I not only agree with your actions, but think you should have offered to escort the DEP/PFBC/DCNR and any other authority to the property to point out any infractions that occured. Bringing these people to justice should be reward enough. Now if you do catch any of those dang rubber fish, I would suggest hurling them at least 50 feet or more from the stream so they cannot wreak havoc on the wild trout. Just don't remove more than your legal limit each day as you could be fined for that.

 

[jayL]

FarmerDave wrote:
We misunderstood "old family friend?" We misunderstood???!!! That sounds just like what the kids in your class would say, blaming someone else for their mistakes. Try this one next time. "I used a poor choice of words." There is a big difference. Yours blames everyone else. Mine takes responsibility. Now for our next lesson. Hey, that might sound mean, but I calls'm as I sees'm and you asked for that after that guilt trip you tried to lay on us. Amature!

Aw come on now. You make good points, most of which I agree with... Then you spew ignorant tripe like that?

Tell me that when you were young that you didn't think that it was ridiculous for the old timers to downgrade and typecast you. I challenge you. This attitude is what causes resentment between the generations. His choosing his words poorly had nothing to do with his generation. Perhaps the only validity to your argument could come from the idea of the meaning of phrases changing in our culture. Perhaps you should have looked there before you made blanket statements about millions of people.... The very same millions that happen to be the future.


To the main point.... I'd be irate, MKern. I really would. But I just wouldn't be able to report them. I have only been able to report someone that I consider an enemy or someone who has essentially challenged me to do so through their actions.

 

[Will]

Ryan: I wasn't suggesting anyone would reveal someone else's biases, which I agree is absurd. I was pointing out that this was an interesting scenario where people were asked for their opinion with just enough facts for them to fill in the rest based on their assumptions. I'd say in a way different people were giving their opinions on totally different factual scenarios. A guy who would turn in his lifelong close friend just for digging out a 5 foot wide hole in a local brook for his kids to fish in, without even giving the friend a chance to understand the error of his ways, when the friend is likely to lose his whole cabin as a consequence? He sounds like a real jerk. A guy who had finally had enough when the local lcareer poachers (everybody in those parts is acquainted with them) had the gall to run a roadgrader through 50 yards of pristine streambed, even after the guy tried repeatedly to warn them it was wrong, even though he knew the most they were likely to get was a small fine? That guys a real hero. The answers revealed a lot, in my opinion, about people's assumptions. That was my only point.

As for MKern's question, as others have said, YOU basically gave FarmerDave the right to judge you when you invited everyone to do just that. Now, you may have a point when you say that he ought to at least do it in a polite manner. On the whole, I would urge you not to take anyone's posts here too seriously. Its easy to get an argument going, but its very rare that anyone engages in that with any real malice.

 

[Wulff-Man]

Will, that's an interesting observation. Sounds like there's a movie script in there somewhere (or at least a sitcom script).

Jay, you misinterpreted FarmerDave's post. He wasn't making this a generational thing. He wasn't saying that people MKern's age always blame others for their mistakes. He was commenting on MKern's earlier observation about the kids that MKern taught in class, the ones who MKern complained about.

Anyway, this thread has gotten pretty far away from flyfishing, and has moved on to sniping, a whole 'nother sport. Or is it a pastime?

 

[jayL]

uh huh. I stand corrected. I interpreted "class" as generation. I promise to read the thread fully next time.

Sorry FarmerDave.

I owe you a beer at the Jam if you go.

 

[Wulff-Man]

The "Will" theory strikes again! Our own inner agendas taking over our interpretation of what others say on a web site, and becoming emotionally charged over it!

 

[MKern]

I am stong willed and words don't hurt me. However, for someone I have never met to pass such harsh and malice judgement on me for standing up for what I believe in and the law it distasteful and tacky. I have had numberous PM and E-mails agreeing with me and reassuring me that what I did was just. however, those people didn't want to post because of the harsh opinions that would flow to them.
I believe there was a post earlier in the week asking for everyone not to attack each other, just state opinions.
For example refering to me as Hitler is far to the extreme.
I contribute only on my opinions and facts that I hear. And the 1 time I feel remorse for a corective action I took, I looked to you (as fishing compadre's and equals) I recieve distain and baradement.

 

[MattBoyer]

So I guess in synopsis, what I learned today is that if your friends do something wrong, that's cool, but if it's your enemy let'm have it. Wow, that doesn't sound in the least bit petty or vindictive. I think anybody who grew up where I did thinks a little more highly of the DEP than the rest of you. I grew up surrounded by sterile creeks that are slowly getting some fish back in them after decades of clear cutting and AMD runoff. They don't wake up in the morning thinking "how can I screw someone today". My wife used to work for the "800 pound gorilla". She worked in the division that cleaned up abandoned mines. Truly evil people there! Somebody please stop them for the children! I find myself slightly disapointed with some of the responses. Not angry, just disapointed. I didn't think many would agree with the guy, but I didn't think some of you to be so mean about it. I have my faults, but I would never berate someone else for not having the same faults as me. Not trying to offend, but give the guy a break.

Boyer

 

[Wmass]

MKERN Don't worry and don't listen to those on here who say that you were in the wrong; what you did took alot of courage and honor. Keeping quite would have meant that you kept a friend at the expense of a prime piece of nature, THIS ACTION WOULD BE COMPLETELY SELFISH because it only serves to benefit yourself. Instead you openned yourself up to a sh!t-storm from your family's friends to do what was right for the river and right for the other people who enjoy that area.

It honestly can take fifteen minutes behind the controls of a backhough to ruin what has taken hundreds of years for nature to create. I saw a prime example recently on a program about a wealthy landowner in Hawaii. The guy is a millionaire in his 70s who owns huge tracts of land and likes to play "construction" with heavy equipement, tearing down this hillside or destroying that valley. Well, a few years back he demolished some trees on an embankment a few hundred yards above a pristine beach and coral reef. He didn't have a clue what the hell he was doing and didn't have work permits and when the next rains came it caused a huge mudslide that filled in the beach and coral reef, killing then entire reef system (it has yet to recover after 4 years). THIS WASN'T ENOUGH FOR THIS JACK@SS and he decided that he would do some rearrangement of a dam-spillway that controlled a large reservoir on his property. He filled the spillway with dirt and this destabilized the dam come next rainfall. This resulted in a 1 mile mudslide that killed 8 people who lived in houses in the valley below and many others to lose their homes.

What would happen if the little dredging job that your family friends did changed the river flow system and led to erosion into their property? They could lose their house via nature rather than via the state.

 

[FarmerDave]

MKern wrote:
I am stong willed and words don't hurt me. However, for someone I have never met to pass such harsh and malice judgement on me for standing up for what I believe in and the law it distasteful and tacky. I have had numberous PM and E-mails agreeing with me and reassuring me that what I did was just. however, those people didn't want to post because of the harsh opinions that would flow to them.
I believe there was a post earlier in the week asking for everyone not to attack each other, just state opinions.
For example refering to me as Hitler is far to the extreme.
I contribute only on my opinions and facts that I hear. And the 1 time I feel remorse for a corective action I took, I looked to you (as fishing compadre's and equals) I recieve distain and baradement.

Mr Kern, That's rich (along with your other). You berade me, then you do the same thing in the very next sentence? Good one. I'm strong willed, and words don't hurt me. No howevers needed either.

For the record.

1. I already agreed that you did the right thing after you added the new information. I guess you didn't read far enough.

2. I did not call you Hitler. I said Hitler would have been proud. The Hitler youth were taught to turn in their friends and family. however, I said that before you cleared up the misunderstanding. No, really, Go check.

3. I did not pass judgement on you.

4. This had nothing to do with a generational thing, nor did any of my remarks at others in the baseball thread.

5. I apologize for my poor attempt at humor. I even used 4 smiley faces in the message so you would know I wasn't serious. Don't those show up on everybody's screen? They show up on mine.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear that you already had a poor opinion of me before I even responded. You've shown it before and just proved it with the "grafite" graphite comment. I have to admit, that one had me confused a little bit. I thought you meant I signed my checks with a spray can or something. :-D Please note the smiley. That means it's a joke, not a cut at your spelling. I'd never do that. Lighten up already. How many people here said you brought this on yourself, but you chose to single me out. I'm flattered.

Oh yea, My plastic/graphite comments are jokes. And I got news for you. They are graphite reinforced plastic. Do you have something against plastic? I don't. I use them too, just not the expensive ones.

Now, that I cleared that up, there is still one last thing that you seemed to miss. You were the one who brought up that you teach kids (that were expelled) to not blame others for their actions. You used it to criticised everyone who disagreed. In my opinion, this was a "hollier than though" response that was meant as a put down to those who disagreed with your original message. this was after you said we misread it (in the same message). I was just giving it back and joking about it. Sure I can dish it out, but I can also take it. Ah heck, you probably still don't see it.

Let me try to say it more respectful and proper. It would have been better if you had just cleared it up and not talked down to everyone for not understanding what you meant. I hope that was better.

OK, so everyone misread your first message, and you did nothing wrong. It's all our fault. Fine. I apologize for jumping on the band wagon and joining in.

Good luck.

P.S. I will try to remember your name and try to be more careful when responding to you in the future.

 

[FarmerDave]

jayL wrote:
uh huh. I stand corrected. I interpreted "class" as generation. I promise to read the thread fully next time.

Sorry FarmerDave.

I owe you a beer at the Jam if you go.

You see Mkern, that is a real apology. He is apologizing for what he did, not for what someone or everyone else did. In my opinion, it takes more guts to apologize than it does to point fingers.

No problem Jay. I'll admit I was a little hard on the guy, just don't tell him I said that. :-D

Seriously, it was my fault for making my response too long.

 

[FarmerDave]

Will, you are a wise man.

 

[FarmerDave]

MattBoyer wrote:
So I guess in synopsis, what I learned today is that if your friends do something wrong, that's cool, but if it's your enemy let'm have it. Wow, that doesn't sound in the least bit petty or vindictive. I think anybody who grew up where I did thinks a little more highly of the DEP than the rest of you. I grew up surrounded by sterile creeks that are slowly getting some fish back in them after decades of clear cutting and AMD runoff. They don't wake up in the morning thinking "how can I screw someone today". My wife used to work for the "800 pound gorilla". She worked in the division that cleaned up abandoned mines. Truly evil people there! Somebody please stop them for the children! I find myself slightly disapointed with some of the responses. Not angry, just disapointed. I didn't think many would agree with the guy, but I didn't think some of you to be so mean about it. I have my faults, but I would never berate someone else for not having the same faults as me. Not trying to offend, but give the guy a break.

Boyer

Good points Matt. I jumped on the band wagon and got carried away (sorry).

As far as letting friends or family slide, it depends on degree. If a friend exceeded the speed limit, I doubt any of us would turn them in. If he killed someone, or beat his wife, I think all of us would turn him in. Everybody has a tripping point somewhere in between. the tripping point might be lower for a stranger, and much lower for an enemy. That is human nature. Heck, it is even more basic than that. Even chimps are more tolerant to their friends than they are to strangers and enemies. Excuse me for being a primate. :-D (it's a joke)

There simply wasn't enough info in the original message, therefore we all picked our own tripping points (see Will's messages). Some of us chose one side of that point to express our opinion, some of us chose the other. I think most of us think he did the right thing once more info was added.

 

[5footfenwick]

mkern, just a small side note, the class A you are refering to(asumming it is the one I believe it is 😉 has been stocked for the last 5 years+??, fish it every year, and I try to catch every one of the trout they put in, its not to hard, they only put like 15 12"brookies in, never seen any of them last till july small side note..yet because I like cathing a 10" natives and that creek has em, would it have more????? never thought about it till I read this post, good call on calling on the pfbc though, ......and for the record all mkern did was try to improve conditions on an already kick a.. brookie creek, you guys passing judgment are prolly the same guys wondering why Chaz won't show you a 14inch+ brookie, Lmfao kern..... small side note ~Rory
P.S. it ok Chaz you can show me and mkern these spots we won't want to stock there...promise......