TwoDogs
New member
You're right Salmonoid, it does depend on the WCO's interpretation ... which is why I asked two separate times. It would be best if it was specifically addressed in the regs, but ...
N
nomad_archer
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As was mentioned, it needs to be clarified. I haven't looked at this product in a store but I may. Really the use a scented rubber baits needs addressed. I wouldn't want to rely on an interpretation of the law. Look at the varying opinions here.
PennKev
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I guess I just don't see how rules pertaining to soft plastics matter much on a fly fishing forum. Particularly as they apply to regs covering stocked fish. If you've read my previous posts regarding DHALO regulations, you will know that I strongly support these regs. I just don't see how this, in particular, is important to us.
If it's a big deal, let the spin fisherman sort it out. There are more than enough of them around. If those using such lures were encountering inconsistent and unfair enforcement, I would think they'd have made it an issue. This "problem" has been something I've encountered only on PAFF as it has been discussed in the past, and I've frequented several popular DHALO over the last 20 years. Never once have I heard anyone complaining about the wording of these regulations out there in the wild.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This board once hosted an argument over what is considered a hook and how they are counted. Maybe what it comes down to is that it is disheartening to see little activity on the forum and then get a three page thread on a topic like this.
foxtrapper1972
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Loon just came out with a mayfly scented floatant . They say the trout hold on a little longer.
Was just kidding and then googled mayfly scented floatant and it turns out Cortland actually sold it at one point.
Was just kidding and then googled mayfly scented floatant and it turns out Cortland actually sold it at one point.
wbranch
Well-known member
Hello Pennkev,
Normally it wouldn't matter one iota and the only reason I ever made the OP was to get clarification because there is a YT video where two yahoos are fishing the Tulpehocken extolling the fish catching virtues of Berkley Power Bait Pink Worms and I wanted to be able to show them the error of their ways without guessing if there tactics are legal or not.
Normally it wouldn't matter one iota and the only reason I ever made the OP was to get clarification because there is a YT video where two yahoos are fishing the Tulpehocken extolling the fish catching virtues of Berkley Power Bait Pink Worms and I wanted to be able to show them the error of their ways without guessing if there tactics are legal or not.
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
Yeah, it would be a darn shame if they got fined.. :lol:
[^joking]
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
The link is no longer available, but I posted info a while back about the mortality of trout parks in Missouri. They are stocked sections of streams with varying regulations. Some sections allowed fly-only, artificial lures as well as bait. These numbers are based on actual results from fishing day in and day out and based on how many trout must be restocked to maintain the section fished:
Afishinado wrote:
From Mike’s writings, I believe that he cites some studies that claim bait, fly, and artificial lure mortality rates are similar. This article is from a recent study in Missouri, where they have "trout parks", which are heavily stocked, and have areas segregated for bait, artificial lures, and flies. This is a perfect laboratory for studying mortality rates under realistic conditions. They studied mortality on a long-term basis through all months of every season. Many of the other studies I’ve read, were for a short-term and involved only few hundred anglers and fish. In these SR areas, many thousands of anglers catching many thousands of fish under actual conditions led them to their conclusions. One other note, since it is a pay-to-fish area, and trout are very expensive to raise, the Missouri Dept. of Conservation has a financial interest to protect. Here are their conclusions:
“Studies conducted by fisheries biologist across the country for the past 40 years, and most recently right here in Missouri, have documented that anglers can improve trout fishing just by changing what is on the end of their line. These studies have shown that trout caught and released using bait are five times more likely to die than trout caught and released using artificial lures or flies. In the trout management areas of Missouri, where minimum size limits require anglers to release sublegal size trout, the effects of bait fishing can have a detrimental effect on the fish population. Up to 80% of the sublegal size fish can die before they reach legal size of 15 or 18" in these areas.
Trout, like many other fish, use their sense of smell and taste when selecting food items. When a trout bites a food item, the scents released from the food can trigger the trout to hang onto its prey even more aggressively than if the smell and taste cues were not present. Unfortunately, this can lead to the hook penetrating very sensitive parts of the fish such as gills, esophagus, or even the heart located just under the skin in the lower rear part of the mouth.
Natural, prepared, and scented baits are often fished passively, meaning the bait is left to set on the stream or lake bottom, or suspended below a float, until the fish ingests it and begins to swim off. By this time the hook is usually deep in the fish's mouth. Because artificial lures and flies don't release scents, and because they are fished more actively by pulling them through the water, the time between biting and hooking is reduced, and the hook does not end up as deep in the trout's mouth. Therefore, if trout are to be released, their chances of survival are much greater if anglers use artificial lures or flies.
The use of artificial lures or flies when trout fishing will reduce catch and release mortality, resulting in more and larger fish for all anglers.”
Afishinado wrote:
From Mike’s writings, I believe that he cites some studies that claim bait, fly, and artificial lure mortality rates are similar. This article is from a recent study in Missouri, where they have "trout parks", which are heavily stocked, and have areas segregated for bait, artificial lures, and flies. This is a perfect laboratory for studying mortality rates under realistic conditions. They studied mortality on a long-term basis through all months of every season. Many of the other studies I’ve read, were for a short-term and involved only few hundred anglers and fish. In these SR areas, many thousands of anglers catching many thousands of fish under actual conditions led them to their conclusions. One other note, since it is a pay-to-fish area, and trout are very expensive to raise, the Missouri Dept. of Conservation has a financial interest to protect. Here are their conclusions:
“Studies conducted by fisheries biologist across the country for the past 40 years, and most recently right here in Missouri, have documented that anglers can improve trout fishing just by changing what is on the end of their line. These studies have shown that trout caught and released using bait are five times more likely to die than trout caught and released using artificial lures or flies. In the trout management areas of Missouri, where minimum size limits require anglers to release sublegal size trout, the effects of bait fishing can have a detrimental effect on the fish population. Up to 80% of the sublegal size fish can die before they reach legal size of 15 or 18" in these areas.
Trout, like many other fish, use their sense of smell and taste when selecting food items. When a trout bites a food item, the scents released from the food can trigger the trout to hang onto its prey even more aggressively than if the smell and taste cues were not present. Unfortunately, this can lead to the hook penetrating very sensitive parts of the fish such as gills, esophagus, or even the heart located just under the skin in the lower rear part of the mouth.
Natural, prepared, and scented baits are often fished passively, meaning the bait is left to set on the stream or lake bottom, or suspended below a float, until the fish ingests it and begins to swim off. By this time the hook is usually deep in the fish's mouth. Because artificial lures and flies don't release scents, and because they are fished more actively by pulling them through the water, the time between biting and hooking is reduced, and the hook does not end up as deep in the trout's mouth. Therefore, if trout are to be released, their chances of survival are much greater if anglers use artificial lures or flies.
The use of artificial lures or flies when trout fishing will reduce catch and release mortality, resulting in more and larger fish for all anglers.”
ryansheehan
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Yet here you are posting a long comment on something you don't think belongs on the site, kind of funny. You know what I do when I see a thread that doesn't interest me, spend 10 minutes writing that ^^
tomgamber
Well-known member
correct. it was meant to show what was removed. My comment was meant to suggest that by this wording's conscious removal, these would now be legal. thanks for clarifying.
Nymph-wristed
Well-known member
From Berkley's web site:
Seems like PowerBait is made of PVC, but Gulp is different. As I stated above, PowerBait was really designed to have the fish hold it longer, but Gulp starts dispersing scent immediately and can be fished dead-sticking, no doubt :-x
"GULP! AND POWERBAIT UNPLUGGED
While Gulp! ® and Gulp! ® Alive! have become overnight sensations, the development of the two products was anything but fast. For more than 20 years, Gulp! technology has existed in the Berkley ® Spirit Lake, Iowa, testing labs. Berkley chemist John Prochnow and I have devoted two decades to perfecting the baits, waiting until the baits performed up to our rigorous standards before releasing them.
Long known as a company that is steeped in technology and constant product innovation, Berkley previously revolutionized the soft bait market with the development of PowerBait ®. But now, as the inshore saltwater, cold water and bass markets are embracing Gulp!, many are asking what is Gulp!, what makes it so effective and what makes it different from PowerBait.
Standard soft plastic baits (worms, lizards, craws, etc.) are made of polyvinyl chloride (PVC), the same material used to make pipes and other items. To make a soft plastic bait out of PVC, the material must be heated up and combined with an oil-based resin. The more oil-based resin added to the PVC, the softer the bait will be. This is how Berkley PowerBait is made.
Gulp! is made using water-based resins, thus the major difference in the two baits. This allows for much more scent distribution than with oil-based resins. Because oil and water do not mix, when scent is added to a bait created from PVC and an oil-based resin, the oil literally traps the scent inside the bait. While some of the scent does get out, the oil is actually functioning as a barrier. However, anglers know that when fish bite PowerBait, they hang on much longer than they do with others. By biting the bait, the fish is releasing that scent which makes them think it is actually food. This results in more positive hook sets.
We always tell people to throw a PowerBait worm until it falls off the hook. Once that bait gets chewed and mangled, that's when the scent is going to be escaping the most.
Gulp!, on the other hand, disperses scent as soon as it hits the water because there is no oil barrier keeping the water out. This allows the bait to disperse an abundance of scent, expanding the strike zone by attracting fish that do not see the bait. When fishing with Gulp!, it is important to fish the bait slowly and allow the bait to do what it is intended to do: disperse scent.
Truthfully, you can use a single Gulp! bait all day and it's still going to be putting out more scent at the end of the day than anything else. That's why Gulp! Alive! is so effective. If you use a bait for an hour or so you can just drop it back in the juice, and after 15 minutes that bait is like new. It's the equivalent of taking a dead minnow and bringing it back to life."
Seems like PowerBait is made of PVC, but Gulp is different. As I stated above, PowerBait was really designed to have the fish hold it longer, but Gulp starts dispersing scent immediately and can be fished dead-sticking, no doubt :-x
"GULP! AND POWERBAIT UNPLUGGED
While Gulp! ® and Gulp! ® Alive! have become overnight sensations, the development of the two products was anything but fast. For more than 20 years, Gulp! technology has existed in the Berkley ® Spirit Lake, Iowa, testing labs. Berkley chemist John Prochnow and I have devoted two decades to perfecting the baits, waiting until the baits performed up to our rigorous standards before releasing them.
Long known as a company that is steeped in technology and constant product innovation, Berkley previously revolutionized the soft bait market with the development of PowerBait ®. But now, as the inshore saltwater, cold water and bass markets are embracing Gulp!, many are asking what is Gulp!, what makes it so effective and what makes it different from PowerBait.
Standard soft plastic baits (worms, lizards, craws, etc.) are made of polyvinyl chloride (PVC), the same material used to make pipes and other items. To make a soft plastic bait out of PVC, the material must be heated up and combined with an oil-based resin. The more oil-based resin added to the PVC, the softer the bait will be. This is how Berkley PowerBait is made.
Gulp! is made using water-based resins, thus the major difference in the two baits. This allows for much more scent distribution than with oil-based resins. Because oil and water do not mix, when scent is added to a bait created from PVC and an oil-based resin, the oil literally traps the scent inside the bait. While some of the scent does get out, the oil is actually functioning as a barrier. However, anglers know that when fish bite PowerBait, they hang on much longer than they do with others. By biting the bait, the fish is releasing that scent which makes them think it is actually food. This results in more positive hook sets.
We always tell people to throw a PowerBait worm until it falls off the hook. Once that bait gets chewed and mangled, that's when the scent is going to be escaping the most.
Gulp!, on the other hand, disperses scent as soon as it hits the water because there is no oil barrier keeping the water out. This allows the bait to disperse an abundance of scent, expanding the strike zone by attracting fish that do not see the bait. When fishing with Gulp!, it is important to fish the bait slowly and allow the bait to do what it is intended to do: disperse scent.
Truthfully, you can use a single Gulp! bait all day and it's still going to be putting out more scent at the end of the day than anything else. That's why Gulp! Alive! is so effective. If you use a bait for an hour or so you can just drop it back in the juice, and after 15 minutes that bait is like new. It's the equivalent of taking a dead minnow and bringing it back to life."
foxtrapper1972
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Sounds like a lot of chemicals and crap that don't belong in any waterway if you ask me.
N
nomad_archer
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Afish - great information. I know from experience bait fishing results in far more deep hooked fish. I remember at times having to cut the hook off on the majority of the fish I caught during an outing. Since I started FF'ing I have only had one deep hooked fish that got to keep the fly. It would be logical than that scented bait like artificials that encourage the fish to hang on longer should be restricted from use in the DHALO areas as they certainly result in deeper hooked fish.
salvelinus
Well-known member
I used the PFBC comment page to ask about scented lures. I received this reply.
"Under current regulations scented artificial lures are permitted, however, paste baits or similar edible baits are not. This issue has been reviewed several times and it has been decided that any regulation developed to prevent the use of scented baits would be potentially too restrictive and difficult to understand by the average angler, which would likely result in local courts being unwilling to enforce the regulation. More importantly it is unlikely that the use of these lures is having a negative impact on the fish populations, making it difficult for the Commission to justify such a change.
Please feel free to contact me if you have additional questions."
Thomas J Burrell, Captain
Waterways Conservation Officer Manager
Pa Fish & Boat Commission
PO Box 67000 Harrisburg Pa 17106
717-705-7838
"Under current regulations scented artificial lures are permitted, however, paste baits or similar edible baits are not. This issue has been reviewed several times and it has been decided that any regulation developed to prevent the use of scented baits would be potentially too restrictive and difficult to understand by the average angler, which would likely result in local courts being unwilling to enforce the regulation. More importantly it is unlikely that the use of these lures is having a negative impact on the fish populations, making it difficult for the Commission to justify such a change.
Please feel free to contact me if you have additional questions."
Thomas J Burrell, Captain
Waterways Conservation Officer Manager
Pa Fish & Boat Commission
PO Box 67000 Harrisburg Pa 17106
717-705-7838
foxtrapper1972
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Dear Captain Burrell-Last summer I pureed some softshell crayfish and added a preservative and I plan to dunk my Clouser Crayfish in this mixture and use it on the deeper areas in the Tulpehocken. I bet I will really slam me some trouts! Thanks for the clarification.
pro4mance
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Please see my last comment in Kayak Rant thread. I reiterate that feeling again.
724flyfishing
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According to the PAFBC response posted above, scented lures are ok. So you could soak your glo bug and sucker spawn egg flies in a jar of egg brine prior to use and spray that Berkeley gulp attractant on streamers. I never tried the said techniques but I will guarantee it isn't going to hurt your chances and would most likely be a very unfair advantage to those who are fishing conventional flies and lures nearby you. Oh well, I'll continue to challenge myself.
At least Salvelinus got us a clearly defined answer on the subject. I always wondered about it, but never cared enough to ask bc I don't use any of it lol.
At least Salvelinus got us a clearly defined answer on the subject. I always wondered about it, but never cared enough to ask bc I don't use any of it lol.
Hook_Jaw
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lol
ryansheehan
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So is the trout worm a paste/edible or a scented bait?
TwoDogs
New member
Well, Captain Burrell says the Berkeley Power Bait Trout Worms are legal, so the the PFBC must consider them a scented bait.
They look just like a regular plastic worm, except Berkeley claims trout will hold on 18 times longer ... unless as often happens, they swallow them.
They look just like a regular plastic worm, except Berkeley claims trout will hold on 18 times longer ... unless as often happens, they swallow them.
