Czech nymph question

[Fly-Swatter]

WARNING: Over thinking ahead!

So, I'm going to pick up my new 10' 3Wt next week and I want to tie some euro-style nymphs to try on local streams. One such is a bead head tan caddis larva on a curved hook.

Question: Although clear "scud back" is not necessary to catch fish, the pattern I'm looking at calls for it. It's tied in on the outside of the hook bend. This placement would cause it to be on the bottom of the fly when fishing because the hook should invert, right?

I suspect it's tied in this way for two reasons: 1. hydrodynamics; 2. too difficult to tie in on the inside of the hook bend.

I'm thinking of either omitting (tied "in the round")the shell back or using UV resin to place it in the correct spot.


Please share your knowledge and correct anything I have wrong here.

 

[Dave_W]

Fly-Swatter wrote:
One such is a bead head tan caddis larva on a curved hook.

Question: Although clear "scud back" is not necessary to catch fish, the pattern I'm looking at calls for it. It's tied in on the outside of the hook bend. This placement would cause it to be on the bottom of the fly when fishing because the hook should invert, right?

Correct. It will drift hook upward - in other words, upside down.

These flies look great in the vise but don't drift the same way and they don't look anything like an actual scud in the water (although they still catch fish).

A better approach is to tie these nymphs in the round or put the dorsal "back" on the inside curve (this is how I tie my stonefly nymphs as I like a strong contrast between the dark brown dorsal side and a gray/cream underside). And I like my nymphs to drift hook upward... but I'm very picky about fly style.

 

[PennKev]

Fly-Swatter wrote:
Question: Although clear "scud back" is not necessary to catch fish, the pattern I'm looking at calls for it. It's tied in on the outside of the hook bend. This placement would cause it to be on the bottom of the fly when fishing because the hook should invert, right?

On an unweighted fly, the bend and point act like a keel, when you add weight (wire or a bead) then that becomes the keel.

However, it depends on the style of the hook, how and how much you weight the fly, materials used in the fly, how those materials are applied, how you tie the fly to your tippet/leader, what sort of water/current you are fishing and probably other factors I can't think of off the top of my head. With that said, a scud tied with a clear shellback, picked out shaggy legs, and a lead wire underbody will often if not usually ride hook point and legs up.

I'm sure plenty of scuds get knocked loose and drift in an awkward, upside-down attitude. The fish eat them anyway.

I think that jig style hooks are the only safe bet when it comes to assuming how a fly will ride in the water. Most other styles can behave unpredictably at times. However, the more weight you add, the more likely a fly will be to ride point up.

One last thought, if you fish the flies at a level in the water column where they are level with or above the fish, the fish will see the side of the fly facing the stream bottom at least to some degree. In the case of your scud which may be riding inverted, this is the shellback side. So a fly tied with a shell back or wing case on the traditional side of the shank can very well be the preferable way to do it if you want those materials to be prominent to the fish.

It all just works out .

 

[troutbert]

Just leave the plastic stuff off the fly.

It's the fur that makes these flies attractive.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

Thanks, guys. int: Your thoughts pretty much confirm what I thought.

The lesson: Go for suggestive and attractor patterns over imitative patterns and tie them with inexpensive, hydrodynamic materials that get the desired effect (sink rate). Then go fish!

For NEPA, I'm going to favor PT and HE variations plus thread body flies. I also like the idea of using a small streamer or stonefly nymph on a jig hook as the point fly with a lightly weighted small fly around #16-18 off a dropper.

Final thought: I am not competition fishing so a dropshot setup may be a good method when I want to fish 2 smaller flies (#18 Iron Lotus and Zebra Midge).

 

[Tigereye]

https://troutbitten.com/2020/03/15/nymph-hook-inversion-and-the-myth-of-the-jig-hook/

Good read on how hooks behave in water though not exactly addressing a "back/abdomen" position.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

Tigereye: Interesting!

Regarding advantages of using jig hooks, I just came across this on Charlie's Fly Box while looking at various nymph patterns. It addresses both jig hooks and tying in the round.

"I asked Lance (Egan) what he thought the advantages of jig hooks were and his answer was both well thought out and clearly practiced. Lance explained that one of the most obvious advantages of jig hooks is that they consistently ride hook point up and resist snagging on the bottom, a consideration of large importance for a competitive angler trying to keep his flies both, dredging the bottom of the river and attached to his tippet! Losing flies and rigs costs precious time in competitions so anything that can keep you fishing and not re-rigging is a big advantage. Lance went on though, and further explained that the biggest advantage he sees in using jig hooks for nymph patterns, is that they reliably hook the fish right in the tip of the snout. He mentioned that rather than hooking fish in the bottom jaw or side of the mouth, jig hooks regularly hooked fish in the fleshy part of the mouth right at the top front, giving solid purchase to the barbless hooks and allowing the angler to direct and lead the fish as needed when landing them, “like a bull-ring through the nose”. I can’t say that I would have thought of that particular advantage in my own limited experience with jig patterns, but once Lance brought it up, a string of memories flashed through my aging brain and ya know…he’s right. I would have guessed that the long, barbless hook points of these competition hooks simply penetrated deeper and held better than conventional hooks, but after considering Lance’s view on where the fish gets hooked, I’d have to agree.

Lance ties his jig patterns with a tungsten bead and typically weights them with lead wire as well to keep them tight to the bottom along the drift. His Frenchie and Iron Lotus patterns are both commercially available from Umpqua Feather Merchants so I asked him to expound a bit on their designs. While the Frenchie is tied “in the round” , that is, the same when viewed from any angle and lacking a wingcase or definite topside, his Iron Lotus pattern sports a wingcase tied on the top of the shank. When I questioned him about why he would tie the fly upside down like this, he patiently explained that the fly doesn’t always hang precisely horizontal on the drift but rather at a bit of an angle, and tying the fly with the wingcase on the top of the shank shows it directly to the fish as the fly drifts. I think this guy may have fins.

Egan did go on to expound that the only disadvantage he’s seen using jig hooks was when fishing streamers, specifically in lakes, with a fast retrieve. Dead drifting or slow retrieves seem to allow regular hook ups, but he has noticed a distinct drop off in hook ups when fast stripping the fly."