Color variations in brook and brown trout

[KenU]

eccles:

Sorry to be so long in answering your question.

I got the information about transplanted brook trout populations not interbreeding with one another at a recent Eastern Brook Trout Joint Venture meeting in Frostburg, MD. It was from a paper presented by Dr. Jay Stauffer, Penn State. He described a study where brookies from three different streams were transplanted into a stream. They maintained their separate identities for more than 3 years. How they were doing this is not known, but it explains how trout can establish different strains even if there are no physical barriers to interbreeding. Steelhead for instance live and spawn in the same streams as stream-resident rainbows. Coastal cutthroats and rainbows do the same thing. All three species can and do interbreed occasionally and the offspring are fertile.

 

[krayfish2]

This thread started out discussing different color phases, moved to different species / sub species and then moved toward migratory fish. All of which is very interesting. At some point, the train seemed to jump the tracks on the OP and IMHO take a turn for the worse.

Post #57 by Tomitrout

And again, while there are some fish that surely make it up over the falls into the Letort, they make up a very small part of the total population of that stream. There are big ones o f 'legend' in there year round all up and down it's length, spend some quality time there and you'll realize this. And I'm sure that the fish in the stream do migrate within it's confines throughout the year, but is there a mass exodus and then subsequent influx as they migrate back in for the spawn...I just don't see it. For the number of fish in that stream you'd think there'd be something akin to a fishin' derby at the mouth when they would stack up to run upstream for the spawn, and for the most part it's just Nightstalker and a couple other fellas targeting those fish.

And if they would regulate the mouths of these waters to protect that handful of migratory fish, pretty sure Nightstalker will have to change his tactics since that appears to be his niche for posting those pics that so many ooo and ahhh over here on this site...


I've copied / pasted Dkile's guidelines for the forum:
Paflyfish is here to help foster a shared interest in expanding our knowledge, experience and most importantly our enjoyment for fly fishing in Pennsylvania region. Humor, ideas, debate, and opinions are encouraged. Deliberate insults, personal attacks, and lewd comments are not welcome for any reason.

I don't know if there's some history between Tomitrout and NightStalker but there seems to be something there on Tomi's part. What’s up with the animosity? If he likes fishing in the winter, good for him. If he likes catching big fish, that's awesome. If he's found these transient fish through hard work, that's cool. He's not the only person on this forum taking pictures of fish. The photos he posts just happen to be of bigger fish. There's no law being violated so where's the issue? Is it anger? Is it jealously? I don't get it.

In post 57, there's the comment "a couple of other fellas targeting those fish". If this is directed at me..... that's a swing and a miss or a foul tip at best. I've fished for over 40 years and fly fished for 33 years. In that time frame, I've wet a line in that particular waterway a whopping 3 times. If that constitutes 'targeting' of those fish, you may want to recalibrate your machine.

 

[krayfish2]

In some of the prior posts, I noticed an outcry for protection of these migratory fish. OK. In order to protect them or close specific sections / havens, you’d have to know how many there are, where they are at, what time of year they utilize that body of water, etc. To the best of my knowledge, there’s no data or studies with this information. The solution: Close all waters to any type of fishing from November through April. Good luck with that.

Does PA have transient / migratory trout? Sure. Here’s the shocking part….. they are all over the place in waters you’d never expect to find them. Do they live in the Delaware south of Easton? Sure. Do they live in the Susky? Yepper, from above Scranton all the way down to Conowingo Dam. How about that Juniata River? Sure enough, they are caught there by walleye fishermen in the colder months. I’m guessing just about any stream that has a wild or stocked feeder has the possibility to hold these wild / migratory / transient fish. I met a guy that was walleye fishing in the Susky with a crawler rig and he took a 27” brown. He showed me pictures of the fish prior to it being mounted and post mounting. Did it make me cringe? Sure but the guy was within his rights to harvest if he so desired.

If creek A flows into the Susky and has been stocked for 60 years, don’t you think some of those fish wash into the big river? Now multiply that by several hundred feeders. The water is cold enough in those bigger waterways for 7-9 months out of the year. Those fish only have to seek refuge for a short time or have adapted to survive for short spells of warmer water. The whole thing is quite amazing in my opinion.

Now, some of you propose regulation to protect them. I’d love to hear how this would work. The only study in our region I’m aware of is when the NY DEC planted radio tags on fish in the Lower EB of the Delaware. That is a river that warms into the 80’s on occasion. The data revealed that some fish went upstream, some went downstream and others simply stayed and found thermal refuge. They were able to document some fish move 50-70 miles during a 12 month span. That is pretty amazing. Several years ago, I stood with a guy from the DEC on the bank of the river one day in late June. We shared his binoculars and he pointed out 2 spring seeps he’s been keeping an eye on. The bottom of the river was tan except these spring seeps. The river bottom just below them was blue / black with hundreds of trout. Some fish probably close to the 7-9 pound range. Those were the fish that stayed and some wore radio tags. Other fish had move 10 miles downriver and 15 miles up a different feeder. These large migratory fish do exist, are fairly common and grown to this size in spite of poor temps, bad water quality, predation, harvest by spin anglers going after warm water species, etc., etc. I just don’t see how any regs could be put in place without lots and lots of data collected. I’m not aware of any data being collected nor have I read anything from PFBC indicating they have any interest in such a study. Would it surprise me to see a radio tagged fish from the Connie show up in the Kish during July / August? Not really. I also wouldn’t be shocked if half of the radio tagged fish stayed in that same body of water and just went into an almost catatonic state once the water went over 75-77 degrees.

The entire subject of migratory / transient fish is fascinating and I wish the PFBC would do some studies but that data would also make it MUCH, MUCH easier for the fish to be targeted by those with ill intentions. Just my thoughts on that topic. Leaving it to mystery may actually be in the best interest of these fish so that they don't end up on someones wall. Improving water quality across the board will only help transient fish and all fish in general.

Back to the original post…… I’ll agree that coloration is mainly impacted by surroundings (color of stream bottom, amount of light exposure, etc.) and maybe a little by diet. To me, species / sub species may more determine marking pattern, body shape or behavior more than the actual color phase of the fish. Source: none.

 

[Stenonema]

Great post Kray and I agree on alot of it. The subject of protection for migratory brown trout is a very difficult one. I use the word migratory rather than transient. The word transient to me suggests that they are lost. I have spent the past 30 years pursuing and learning the behaviors and travels of such fish. There is a rhyme and reason but, putting all the pieces of the puzzle together has been an absolutely wonderful challenge with a fly rod in hand The knowledge gained in that pursuit did not come from books as you said there isn't a study done or definitive information on the subject. The PFBC stance is and I agree is that the brown trout do a great job of protecting themselves and in many situations regulations have been a detriment to the overall population mostly in the form of fishing pressure. It is my hopes that if concerns were raised and a better understanding gained then perhaps others may see as I do that the genetics of such fish are worthy of appreciation. The most needed form of protection is where they are most vulnerable. The cold water refuge areas. I believe that this form of protection is certainly possible in some situations.

 

[tomitrout]

Kray, I have no issues with either you or Nightstalker, just making an observation that if, IF, there were a big migrant population of browns regularly moving in and out of the Letort, Big Spring, Trindle or any of the other Limestone Runs, then there would surely be more folks targeting them instead of just Nightstalker and a few others who play that game. I think that the lack of folks targeting these fish is evidence of their numbers, or lack there of.

And, my point is that if these fish were somehow regulated, then unfortunately Nightstalker would have to seriously change his tactics and we would all miss out on the big fish porn that he regulerly posts here, or perhaps he'd adjust to the regs and still continue to bag the big boys.

That's all there is to it, if you wanna make more of it, go right ahead, that's your perogative.

 

[Stenonema]

Tomi there are more trout and more fisherman than you know out there. Don't be mislead not everyone is talking. The big difference between Stalker and me is that I am seeking protection first. I have lost too much to share without concern.

 

[Stenonema]

Why is it so hard for people to believe or accept the notion that there could be better fishing out there. Maybe everyone wants to believe they are the expert. I could say well we could go fishing for a big wild brown by ourselves or stand in a crowd on a special reg section fishing for stocked trout and to my amazement they will want to watch a strike indicator float past the same group of misshapen and discolored stocked trout all day. Blows my mind. Really.
But that is the way it is. .
Some people choose to do there own leg work and enjoy the fruits of there labors in discovery and what they do with the knowlege earned and the discoveries made is there choice.

 

[Chaz]

I'm with Krayfish2 on the migratory fish thing, you cannot protect everything, and protect them from what fishing? Because that's what it would take. Then there is the question of fishing where, anywhere there are trout in the summer. Or do you want it like it used to be, close the trout fishing season on July 1 any keep it closed the rest of the year.

The original post was derailed several days ago. Someone should have closed this and moved the derailment to another thread.

As to the OP There is a large amount of coloration difference among our trout, for the reasons I stated. The only thing it has to do with migratory fish is that those fish are at the extreme of the pale end of coloration.

 

[tomitrout]

Tomi there are more trout and more fisherman than you know out there. Don't be mislead not everyone is talking. The big difference between Stalker and me is that I am seeking protection first. I have lost too much to share without concern.

Valid point, and again, based on my observations, having lived in Carlisle for 20+ years now, is that if there were a large enough & substantial enough run of migratory trout into or out of the Letort or any of the other CV Limestoners, that word would have gotten out by now and there would be more than just a handful of guys like Brian targeting them.

Like maybe we'd see a lot more posts around here akin to the spring time queries of "have the grannoms started yet?", "anybody seen a sulphur yet?"...."have the browns started their run up into any one of the handful of CV Limestoners yet?"

But you don't see those posts, you don't hear about it thru the grapevine, you just don't see too many guys targeting these fish. Which to me is evidence that their numbers just aren't there. Don'tchya think if there was a substantial run of fish up the Conodoguinet that there'd be more folks targeting them? Instead it's just NS & a couple others putting in the time, lots of time, to on occasion catch those old rogue brown trout. Kudos to them for logging that time on the water and figuring it out, there's obviously a few fish there. I just don't think they're there in any sort of real numbers to attract the attention of anybody other than those that like to play that niche game like NS does.

Personally, that style of fishing isn't really my cup of tea, just as Brian rarely if ever fishes, say, the upper reaches of the Letort. That's not his cup of tea. So to each his own and here's to wishing tight lines for everybody (even you Kray, once you pull your gear back out of winter storage ).

 

[tomitrout]

Kray:

Improving water quality across the board will only help transient fish and all fish in general.

Truth.

 

[Stenonema]

I hear ya Tomi. I get it. But if I have learned anything about trout fishing it is to not assume anything. I believe that you may be assuming too much. I remember as a very young boy telling the older gentleman at the fly shops in your area that I was fishing to Stoneflies. They told me I was wrong they were caddis. Today we know this hatch as Early Black Stones. The old boys made the assumption that the little boy couldn't possibly know something they didin't. Making assumptions can be a learning disability in my opinion.
Fish with a purpose other than to simply catch fish. Fly fishing to me is an unconquerable world of discovery and I love it.
A friend of mine said to me " We know a hundred places we could fish this evening and smash them and yet we are fishing where we think there should be fish in the hopes of finding them."

To each his own. It's the greatest sport because it can never be truly mastered. Lessons can be learned from anyone in the sport even a 10 year old.

 

[Stenonema]

What if we took a big creek like the Cono and we placed a no kill designation on it for Brown Trout. What if we took out the barriers on the feeder streams for access to spawning area. What if we did what we could do for the benefit of these fish. What if we realized that their potential was much greater than we ever beleived. Is it possible. Well I guess we will never know.

 

[BrooksAndHooks]

So thanks for the lively discussion guys! Haha. Definitely a good deal of information here, and good debate.

 

[krayfish2]

I've probably logged 16 hours in my 3 trips over there. Air temps were between 26 and 36 degrees. Not exactly my cup of tea as I prefer to chase hatches and rising fish. I put in the work / time and it yielded 1 fish for me. Hucking a 7wt sink tip while dodging giant ice chunks is hard work and not for everyone. I'd like to think my efforts would have resulted in more. Nope. If someone thinks they are going to walk in over there and catch a couple of fish in an hour and head home, better think again. My object was to survive. I give credit to NS for doing it. He's fished it since he was a little kid and knows where to go. I'd say a majority of us could go there and catch nothing more than frostbite. I'd always wondered but never tried it.....so I gave it a shot. For me, it's worth a trip or two per winter.

Spring 2012, I floated down the Susky (undisclosed location).and came across a pod of fish feeding on sulphurs. I'm 90% sure they were trout as they let me get the boat pretty close before spooking. I've attempted to get back to that section for the last 2 springs but the flows were too high or low. Again, one of those chasing "what might be" is part of the fun.

Steno,
If all of the things you'd suggested were to happen , you'd have a season trout fishery in a carp and bass river. Instead of 50 fish, you might end up with 300-400......which would also result in a ton more press and pressure.

 

[JeffK]

IMHO, these are specialized fishing situations that take a lot of work, so I don't think these populations will be overfished. Haven't been overfished for the 50 years I've been fishing, and I don't see any more patient guys than the old timers.

I grew up on the Delaware in Phillipsburg and knew a handful of guys that caught a few of the big browns each year. But they fished every day. One guy worked second shift and scouted when the sun was high every day and then fished after he got off. This guy lived to fish. The other guys lived on the mouths of tribs and checked for fish every day. The big browns only came up a couple of hundred yards for a day or two and people who lived right there could be on the watch for them. I fished a couple of times a week and always saw the redds, but missed the fish. Some Delaware bows even come into the Pequest and Brodhead - I've got them fortunately. However, it is a lot of work for a few fish and I doubt most people will persevere long enough to be successful. A few locals seem to hang on to these traditions. but I think in years past the "fish heads" were more patient and more willing to work hard for a few or two. Today heading to Great Lakes tribs is a surer way to get into bigger fish by a long shot and the big fish guys spend a lot more time in Pulaski or Orleans (where are there more huge browns than Oak Orchard?) than P,burg in my experience. Back in the day the GL fishing didn't exist and people didn't travel far to fish anyway, so the big fish hunters concentrated close to home where they kept close tabs on conditions.

Same thing happened to the sea run browns in the Manasquan. NJ has stocked tons of browns into the Manasquan over the years to get sea run fish and a few do come back. However, over 80% of the fish were caught by a single guy who really worked at it. Casual fishing for sea runs is mostly casting practice and only one guy seemed to have the patience to figure it out.

Also, Finger Lakes fishing has also been eclipsed by GL tribs. Cayuga Inlet has a trap on it to monitor the runs. The runs there are only a few hundred trout a year, and this tribs supports vastly more expansive cold water fishery than our major rivers.

Yes, our major rivers do have large trout in them. But they will forever more work to catch than most people will expend.

 

[Oregon_Owl]

There is a book that has been out for a couple of years by a young guy who paints fish (James Prosek, I think, who maybe went to Yale) and he documented multiple color variants of brown trout throughout Europe, Asia, Russia, etc... There were all kinds of color schemes. They almost look like different species. Certainly different sub-species (but I am not sure of the genetics). These variations evolved over eons, not the short time brown trout have been in the US, due to their isolation and environment. It is possible that same kind of variation could occur in US, but I think within PA maybe not so much because the differences in environment, stream chemistry, diet, may not be all that extreme. Fascinating topic.