Clarks Creek Rattlers

[eballat]

Just wondering if anyone has experienced the same phenomenon at Clarks Creek as me. I was there this past Monday with my friend. We got there around 5:30 at night. It was only the second time i had ever been to the 1.9 mi fly fishing stretch. Anyway, someone had told me before about the high amount of Rattle Snakes in the area and i blew it off as BS. I've been fishing all over the state of PA for years and several other states and only seen one Rattle Snake along a stream, and that was up in Slate Run when i was 16. (that was 10 years ago). However this monday at Clarks my friend and I encountered 3 different rattle snakes along the stream in the fly fishing section. Now i'm not one to kill things if i dont need to, and i've handled Rattle Snakes before, i usually enter the Morris Snake hunt every year with some friends, but i think next time i go there i am going to carry my pistol just in case. Is this a frequent thing along Clarks or was this just some strange random occurance? Because to be honest i dont really feel like lugging my .357 around while i'm fishing. If you have any info please reply to this thread.

 

[buffalo]

I don't go to Clarks without a sidearm anymore. Last fall I was wading the stream concentrating on a Trico hatch and looked up to see a mature bear standing on the path about 20 feet from me. All I could do was avoid eye contact and wait ‘till the bear decided to move on.

 

[MattBoyer]

I would say it was a fairly random occurence. I've seen rattlers there, but they are by no means common. More importantly, if you have time to get your gun out of your holster, chamber a round (unless you are walking on loose rocks locked and loaded) aim, and shoot, you probably had time to get out of it's way. Shooting a bear out of season just because it was in the forest where you wanted to fish doesn't look much better on paper. I understand being a bit freaked out if you don't see bears or snakes very often, but the reality is they probably aren't gonna eat anybody today. I'm not tryin to bust anybody's stones, but both reasons for carrying a gun stated here would get you a nice fine, and the number of fatal black bear attacks and rattlesnake attacks combined, then multiplied by 100 still pales by far in camparison to the number of accidental firearms deaths reported annually.

Boyer

 

[od354]

I gotta fully agree with Matt on this one, not that I am trying to lecture or tell anyone what to do, but carrying a sidearm for protection from a chance encouter with a black bear doesnt make much sense to me. The chances of a predatory attack by a black bear are extremely low and a gun I feel, is a little over kill for black bears or rattlers. Maybe look at bear spray as a more effective means of protection if there are concerns about running into a bear, this way no gets seriously injuried. Now if you are in the brush in Alaska or somewhere Brown bear are prevelent, then thats a different story all together...

...on a side note, I was not aware that rattlers were much of a concern around here (I am not from PA orginally), so that is some good info to know!

 

[PaulG]

Eballat

I've been fishing Clarks for about 50 years, and have only seen one rattler that I was sure of. I've seen lots of snakes up there but since Im Scared to death of them, I don't go to see what they are, usually do a fast retreat, If I can!

PaulG

 

[Padraic]

Rattlesnake sightings are much more common in the Stony Creek Valley, just over the mountain. It's supposedly a very good breeding habitat for them. I suspect that the weather has dried up the seeps and small streams that they use. So they are probably coming down to the stream.

I don't know much about guns, so I can't comment on what you want to do about carrying one. However, I can say for certain that I have never been chased by any snakes. So unless you step on one, it's very unlikely you'll be bitten. If you step on one, I don't think you could beat it in a quick draw.

 

[Chaz]

Just what we need a bunch of yahoos running around the woods with guns in the mistaken belief that they may run into a rattler. I've been fishing back country streams longer than you've been on earth and have never seen any poisonous snakes along streams. That doesn't mean they are not there, just that I've never seen one.
Carry if you must, but don't forget you need a permit.
As to black bears, your likelhood of seeing another one along a stream when fishing is quite low, I've seen plenty of bears in PA, but only ever had 1 encounter with a bear on a stream.
If you're afraid of animals mabe you should find another hobby.
I worked on a farm when I was a kid and had to tend to the bull. Now that is an animal that couldn't be trusted. But he didn't make me want to carry a firearm either, all I had to do was make a bunch of noise and he'd run the other way. The same goes for most wild animals in PA.

 

[JackSteel]

Regulations concerning Rattlesnakes come under the jurisdiction of the PFBC. I would suggest that interested people look at their regulations. They are an endangered species and it is strictly against the law to kill them.
If left alone, they present no threat.

Jack Steel

 

[JackSteel]

Sorry - I realized that I "mis-spoke". "PFBC" should have been "DCNR".

Jack Steel

 

[JackM]

Jack, unless I misunderstand your correction, it seems you were correct in the first place, at least regarding the agency that regulates snakes. However, you may be incorrect regarding the legality of killing them:

All snakes in Pennsylvania are protected by Fish and Boat Commission regulations. Species that are not listed as Endangered, Threatened, or Candidate may be captured or possessed under specific daily and possession limits (Consult http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/repamp.html). Endangered or Threatened species such as Kirtland's snake, eastern massasauga and rough green snake cannot be caught, killed, possessed, imported to, or exported from Pennsylvania. The timber rattlesnake is protected under additional regulations and permits regarding seasons and possession limits. Specific questions about current regulations can be directed to any of the Commission's Regional Law Enforcement Offices or the Herpetology and Endangered Species Coordinator.

 

[troutbert]

According to DCNR's website, no deaths attributable to rattlers have occurred in PA for at least the last 25 years.

And I'm pretty sure no one has been killed by a black bear in PA.

And that can't be said about accidental firearm discharges.

As Pad pointed out, if you are walking along and see a rattler, you can just walk around it. If you don't see it and in the very rare case where you get struck, a gun isn't going to be any use to you at that point.

I don't like seeing people who aren't hunting carrying weapons in the woods. Maybe it's my imagination, but I usually suspect that they are carrying a weapon be macho, to try to initimidate other people, not so much for use against dangerous animals.

I've fished backcountry streams a whole lot for more than 30 years and never had any kind of attack from a wild animal. I know lots of other people who have also done a lot of this type of fishing and they haven't had problems either. People's fears about this kind of thing are greatly exaggerated.

Driving to the store to get a gallon of milk, THAT'S dangerous.

 

[Fishidiot]

Count me as another snake lover who is often incredulous about the claims of people who see a lot of supposedly venomous snakes here in PA. I have been hiking and fishing the mountains of PA for over 25 years and have never seen a timber rattlesnake. Yes, they're there but they are really rare. Timber rattlesnakes, while not endangered in PA, are heavily regulated and the law does allow the killing of, I think, one per year with a permit. In my view no killing of timber rattlers should be allowed at all except in an emergency. Timber rattlesnakes are slow to mature, taking usually five years, and bear few young. They are slow growing and can live to be 50 years old. Female timber rattlers mate only every two to three years and gestation takes 12 months and it is thought that pregnant females do not feed that entire year so they are exhausted after giving birth. Simply put, these snakes can't withstand much pressure or their populations crash. Also: there are no water moccasins in PA - don't get me started on this one. The farthest north that moccasins exist in the east is southeastern VA. Water snakes are common and are often what are mis-identified as "copperheads." I saw at least a dozen water snakes on Big Spring Creek yesterday. Over the years I have seen quite a few water snakes blasted by gunfire under the mistaken belief by ignorant fishermen that they were moccasins or copperheads.

 

[Padraic]

Fishidiot,

Your post reminds me of a couple incidents where I got a good pool to myself because a fisherman misidentified a watersnake! :-D

While there are rattlesnakes in the Stony Creek Valley, I have heard only scattered sightings in the Clarks Valley. I'm not sure what in the habitat is so different, except to say that Stony is well named. It has a number of large moraines that the snakes use for dens. I try to avoid these, or I make a lot of noise if I do have to walk over them.

There are a ton of other snakes in both Clarks and Stony.

 

[Padraic]

I just want to stress that I am not against firearms or carrying them. I know a guy (and fished with him) who carries a 38 with him whenever he fishes. His reason is that he had a bad encounter with a guy in one of the parking lots up at Clarks. If I had an experience like that, maybe I would carry one too. But i think the story has grown in the retelling and I have always felt pretty safe leaving my car in the lots up there and walking around.

As far as I am concerned the major threat in the PA woods is getting lost, falling, tics and the weather. I think a pistol would just be extra weight in those situations. I'd rather carry other things that would be more likely to be useful. Other people with other experiences are free to feel differently.

 

[mattd]

My wife refuses to fish stoney because of the rattlers and we spend alot more time on Clarks because of this. Hope she doesn't see this posting.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear fishidiot,

Yeah, I hear you when talk about the water moccasins. They end at the Great Dismal Swamp in Tidewater Virginia, period.

When I lived in the Florida Panhandle they were everywhere when you went back into a slough off the main channel of a river but they never seemed to bother anyone. I was pretty cautious of them but when fishing with a local swamp rat he showed me that they were more scared of people than people should be of them by jumping on two of them from our canoe.

Those snakes took off on plane when he landed on them. I wonder whatever happened to ol' Kenny? I'll bet he's either dead or in jail, but he was a lot of fun to fish with. I really appreciated the fact that he pointed out all the gator slides and dens in my favorite fishing spots. Gators sort of scared me. :-o

Dear Padraic,

My nextdoor neighbor took a couple of pictures of two rattlesnakes that were sunning themselves on the side of the road by my mailbox a couple of years ago. There are plenty of them here in Fishing Creek Valley just one valley south of Stony.

I think the three distinct ridgelines with streams and tens of thousands of unpopulated acres heading east from the Susquehanna make the area ideal for snakes. They don't like to be around people, and sometimes when heavy artillery is being fired at Fort Indiantown Gap you here reliable reports that the snakes are coming down from the hills.

I love snakes!

Regards,
Tim Murphy :-D

 

[sight_nymph_17109]

I've fished for 24 years now and have yet to see a rattler or copperhead. My sister lives on Clarks near the stone arch bridge and I've spent some time with her kids looking for critters along the stream and haven't found much more then a ring neck or water snake. I think most sightings of "copperheads" are actually water snake. A week ago while golfing at Sportsmans GC in Harrisburg, one guy in my group started screaming "copperhead" and swinging his club wildly. I ran over, picked up the watersnake and asked him if to get in the cart and leave the damn thing alone. While fishing Penns in mid May, the guy fishing next to me informed me that the fallen tree that I was crawling around and sitting on had a 4+ foot rattler under it just prior to my showing up. I thanked him for providing that info in a not so timely manor. Bottom line: Watch where you're stepping and they are more afraid of you then you are of them. Give a snake some space and it will run... corner it and you may get a different result. These rules don't apply to water moccasins but we don't have those in PA. No opinion on carrying firearms but if you do... don't point it at me. I didn't know you were after the fish I just caught.

 

[sdwlucas]

Wow, I think I'd be more amazed at seeing the ring-neck than seeing a rattler. I have seen many snakes and I will agree that I probably do over-react, however at our camp on Lake Raystown I have killed (verified) quite a few of copperheads (mostly babies) with the lawn mower. I never even saw them until I had already run them over and killed them. I have yet to see a rattler, my dad and a friend were fishing Stony Creek when I was younger (probably 20 years ago) and his friend shot it. I think that is where my phobia of snakes came from.

As for bears, i have lived near gamelands for the past year and have had bears (mother, 3 cubs) actually on my front porch. I was alarmed to her presence by my dog, I looked out the front window and there she was. I opened the front door leaving the dog inside and growled at her, she jumped off the porch with her cubs and ran across the street. No problem!

About four or five years ago my dad and I were fishing Standing Stone Creek on the first day of trout. A guy came walking down the stream and said there is a bear in that Sycamore tree. Curiosity killed me so I walked up to the tree looked up the branches and didn;t see anything. He said she's in the bottom of the tree. I looked in a hole no larger than a groundhog hole and there she was looking right at me. I backed up and left. My dad and the guy who told us about the bear decided to go up around lunch time and snap some pics. My dad stuck the camera in the hole and snapped a few pics with his disposable camera (they came out great). Dad and this guy walked down stream after taking the pictures and the bear came running out of the tree and ran across a field approx 300 yards. I told my dad I thought there would be cubs in the tree and asked for the camera. I went up and looked in the hole and sure enough there were three cubs, I took several pictures and left them be. Next weekend we went back and they were all gone.

Two years ago we were hunting bear with a group of guys and the first bear to come out attacked the one guy who was in our party after being shot several times. The bear after being shot at least three times had enough strength to grab a hold of the guy and bite and scratch him before it died.

The moral of the story is if you don't mess with them, they won't mess with you. Bears are not something to be afraid of, now snakes thats a different story! I'm just kidding, this post has really opened my eyes concerning snakes.

Here is a picture of me with one of three bear cubs that was brought in to a wildlife rehab near my house, looks like a black lab pup!

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear sdwlucas,

Maybe you should have kept that bear cub and pen raised it and then rode along all over the NC region is a Jeep with no rollbar trying to figure out what kind of trouble it got into? Your Dad could have been a PGC patrolman and you could have had an ugly buck toothed kid brother to make it believable. :lol:

For those too young to remember, I'm talking about the TV Show, "Gentle Ben."

That's a cool picture and I hope the little tussler is doing well somewhere in the woods.

I love bears about as much as I love snakes. I've seen a few bears in the wild and what amazes me about bears is how a squirrel or chipmunk makes noise running in dead leaves but a 400 pound bear can run by and not make a sound?

Seriously, unless they are clumsy or drunk they go by you in a whisper.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[MattBoyer]

TimMurphy wrote:

I love bears about as much as I love snakes. I've seen a few bears in the wild and what amazes me about bears is how a squirrel or chipmunk makes noise running in dead leaves but a 400 pound bear can run by and not make a sound?

Seriously, unless they are clumsy or drunk they go by you in a whisper.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Amen to that, man! I always tell my friends who aren't so woods wise that if it sounds like a bear coming it's a squirrel, but the black ghost makes no sound. It's un-friggin-canny how quiet they are.

Boyer