Chop & Drop program in PA streams

I know with this crowd of Large Woody Debris (LWD) fans I’m fixing to be Fozzie Bear standing on stage with everyone else at the ready with tomatoes, but oh well…

I know there’s science behind it, but from a practical perspective I haven’t noticed much actual benefit in terms of making fish holding habitat. My experience is mainly with the work in the Kettle watershed, and referenced in the article. Maybe the stream(s) need more time to carve out some habitat. I dunno. But I’m meh on this. At first I thought it was a good idea, but I’m struggling to notice the benefits. Aside from perhaps decreasing angling pressure because these sections become a royal PITA to navigate.

I know large LWD is a good thing, but I kind of laughed at the part in the article that said forested streams don’t make a lot of LWD on their own. Where do they think the trees along the stream in the forest fall?
 
6xAdams(Jones) said:
You may want to see a doctor. (JK)
Fallen trees have a way of disappearing and reappearing somewhere else between fall and spring... At least in the little cricks I like to fish in.
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In many cases, yes. Entire trees that are in small streams are gone or moved from one year to the next. In other situations, log jams become seriously rooted and seem to pile up, cause huge blockages, etc. I hate that. It causes scour pools, sure, but I hate fishing em, I hate navigating around em, etc. On some streams, it's ridiculous how much there is that never vanishes.
 
Swattie87 said:
I know with this crowd of Large Woody Debris (LWD) fans I’m fixing to be Fozzie Bear standing on stage with everyone else at the ready with tomatoes, but oh well…

I know there’s science behind it, but from a practical perspective I haven’t noticed much actual benefit in terms of making fish holding habitat. My experience is mainly with the work in the Kettle watershed, and referenced in the article. Maybe the stream(s) need more time to carve out some habitat. I dunno. But I’m meh on this. At first I thought it was a good idea, but I’m struggling to notice the benefits. Aside from perhaps decreasing angling pressure because these sections become a royal PITA to navigate.

I know large LWD is a good thing, but I kind of laughed at the part in the article that said forested streams don’t make a lot of LWD on their own. Where do they think the trees along the stream in the forest fall?
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Dear Swattie,

I think the stream bottom the trees are felled into means more than the actual trees. Dropping logs in Northern tier PA streams that have a mostly cobble, round rock bottom is rather transitory in nature. For a time and with normal flows followed by the occasional gushing rain they can carve out some habitat.

But drop 3 inches of rain in one stagnant thunderstorm and that log jam is on its way to Baltimore. In streams with jagged larger rocks and boulders the pile can last longer and potentially do better. Even with higher flows they will sometimes stay pretty much in place but simply shift a little and divert water in another direction.

Eventually though, they all get blown out.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
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A lot of the ones I’ve seen in the Kettle watershed are barely in the water at “average” flows. Some aren’t at all. I know it’s not an exact science as to where they land when you’re felling trees, but many are stretched across the width of the stream and laying on each respective bank. They make nice stream crossings for bobcats and the like probably, but the water is just flowing under them.

I guess I’m more of the opinion of just leave the stream alone. If it ain’t broke, don’t F it up by trying to make it “better”. The Kettle watershed (other than the mainstem below Oleona) is basically all Class A already. Cross Fork and Little Kettle are Class A too, but that’s another discussion for another thread.

Leave it alone IMO. If a bunch of trees fall for some reason then so be it. There’s a stretch of LBYWC below Shingle Branch that had some kind of localized wind event (microburst probably) go through a few years ago. It’s a jungle gym to fish now, and I just plain skip it, but I acknowledge it’s probably good for the fish. Again, leave it alone.
 
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Naturally occurring large woody debris certainly creates a lot of pool and cover habitat. That's easy to see.

If LWD from chop and drop is not doing the same thing, why would that be?
 
I think there are a mixture of reasons that chop and drop can assist some streams. Many forests in PA and on the east coast overall have been completely deforested in the last 200 years. We are talking clearcutting as far as the eye can see. Since so many trees are still new and growing, there is a lack of fallen trees throughout Pennsylvania streams.

Previously, huge ancient trees were likely all over and in streams and rivers throughout Pennsylvania, providing cover/habitat for fish, food for insects, and prohibiting erosion. I think there are definitely plenty of streams out there where chopping some trees down to provide this service for the fish makes sense. Of course with anything like this, I am sure there is a happy medium. No need to chop every tree along the bank down, but cutting down a few trees in targetted locations seems like a good idea.
 
I fished a Sullivan county stream last week that had a LOT of natural deadfalls in and across the stream that were not there last year. It was a very noticeable difference. I spent a good bit of time trying to negotiate them, having to go over, under, and around them took a toll on me. It seemed they were almost always at the best pools/runs, making fishing them tough, if not impossible. Bad for the fisherman, good for the trout.
 
wildtrout2 said:
I fished a Sullivan county stream last week that had a LOT of natural deadfalls in and across the stream that were not there last year. It was a very noticeable difference. I spent a good bit of time trying to negotiate them, having to go over, under, and around them took a toll on me. It seemed they were almost always at the best pools/runs, making fishing them tough, if not impossible. Bad for the fisherman, good for the trout.
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What an amazing coincidence that the fallen trees were almost always at the best pools and runs! ;-)
 
troutbert said:
What an amazing coincidence that the fallen trees were almost always at the best pools and runs! ;-)
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Yes, especially considering I was in the middle of nowhere, where I know it was Mother Nature's work, and not a man made situation. Most wild streams don't need man's help with tree dropping.
 
The part that confuses me, doesnt this cause erosion and excessive sediment to be washed into the stream? Thats bad, right? One minute were getting rid of silt in the water, the next were intentionally causing it. Someone please clarify.
 
wildtrout2 said:
I fished a Sullivan county stream last week that had a LOT of natural deadfalls in and across the stream that were not there last year. It was a very noticeable difference. I spent a good bit of time trying to negotiate them, having to go over, under, and around them took a toll on me. It seemed they were almost always at the best pools/runs, making fishing them tough, if not impossible. Bad for the fisherman, good for the trout.
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People do understand that the downed trees are CAUSING the formation of the pools, right?
 
troutbert said:
People do understand that the downed trees are CAUSING the formation of the pools, right?
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I have no idea what people understand, or not. :) I often fish high gradient streams, where pools have been created over time simply because of the geology. These pools are always there, no matter what. Uprooted trees often help create new pools though.
 
mossyoakpenn said:
The part that confuses me, doesnt this cause erosion and excessive sediment to be washed into the stream? Thats bad, right? One minute were getting rid of silt in the water, the next were intentionally causing it. Someone please clarify.
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Dear mossyoakpenn,

What happens depends on the stream bed in question, and the stream gradient. The rock substrate is where the silt comes from in a place like Clarks Creek which is surrounded by sandstone ridges and has a very low gradient. In more rugged territory, the stream bottom has more rocks and/or cobbles and not nearly as much silty loam.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
mossyoakpenn said:
The part that confuses me, doesnt this cause erosion and excessive sediment to be washed into the stream? Thats bad, right? One minute were getting rid of silt in the water, the next were intentionally causing it. Someone please clarify.
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Yeah it depends on the situation. Chopping down a tree that is 20 feet from the bank and having it fall in the water will prevent/slow down erosion. The tree/branches in the water will slow the flow, depositing sediment that is flowing after rain events in the stream and along the banks.

Chopping down a tree that is stabilizing the banks could lead to erosion. Especially if that tree is washed away and the root system dies overtime without the tree above it and with water eroding it.
 
Not sure about all of this. I have seen trees fall and block the water from flowing; instead, the water flows out around the deadfall, with little water actually backing up and no tumble hole below the deadfall. I would think the would be detrimental to the stream and its trout.

In that same vein, 25 years ago when i became active in TU for a while, the first stream rehab project I helped with was to remove deadfalls that did what I noted in the first paragraph from a small stream. Their removal improved the areas from which they were removed.

With all the dying ash, elm, and willows that are falling/have fallen into many streams, I doubt whether cutting trees to benefit those creeks would be helpful at all.

I am guessing there are both good and bad things, environmentally speaking, that can occur with chop and drop activities.
 
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