Brook trout (ST) C&R: no added benefit to ST size or abundance

I won't comment on the details of the studies cited, but all it shows is that on the 8 streams in the study there was no impact. In PA where there is over 5000 miles of rbook trout water you cannt make a general statement that because of a study, either the wild trout study done by PFBC, or the SMNP study tells us that for all streams there is no change in the population structure bcause of harvest. Neither can a person say that tere is a change based on some other study. The study roup is just too small to have any meaning beyond the streams in the study.
 
I find myself in agreement with Chaz. I only hope he recognizes that it works both ways when such studies support his opinions, just as much and for the same reasons when they fail to support them.
 
Chaz wrote: "you cannt make a general statement that because of a study, either the wild trout study done by PFBC, or the SMNP study tells us that for all streams there is no change in the population structure bcause of harvest."

Chaz,

I agree with you about general statements about any complicated subject, but since most of the anglers did not harvest or harvested few fish (harvest rate of 0.1 – 0.3 fish / hour fished) the study confirmed that if anglers practice C&R, the impact on the population is minimal……..dddaaaahhhh! This was not really a study of the effects on the wild trout populations of a stream with harvesting verses non-harvesting practices. Essentially since the control streams were closed, and the studied streams were opened to harvest but had voluntary C&R, the harvest factor is essentially taken out of the equation. I’ll go out on a limb and state that if fisherman did harvest the legal fish they caught, the population, of at least adult fish, would decline. If certain streams in PA are subject to even moderate harvest, the same would hold true.

I believe that the argument with the PFBC with wild trout regulations should be about the amount of harvesting of trout on a particular stream. The one example I have cited to Mike is Hay Creek in Berks County. Hay in the upper approved section either is or could be a class A stream in that section. Many wild fish are harvested in the spring due to the fishing pressure after it is stocked. Some wild fish will move back in after the circus leaves town, but the majority of legal sized wild fish are killed. I know of other streams, while Chaz, Sal, and many others could probably write volumes.

The problem in PA is that making all wild trout streams C&R would be wildly unpopular to many fishermen. The alternative of designating certain streams C&R would put a bull’s eye on them, making them wildly popular with many fisherman, and may result of more posted land, and a poor fishing experience. Tough choices.
 
that was very well said afish. very well said indeed.
 
I believe that the argument with the PFBC with wild trout regulations should be about the amount of harvesting of trout on a particular stream. The one example I have cited to Mike is Hay Creek in Berks County. Hay in the upper approved section either is or could be a class A stream in that section. Many wild fish are harvested in the spring due to the fishing pressure after it is stocked. Some wild fish will move back in after the circus leaves town, but the majority of legal sized wild fish are killed. I know of other streams, while Chaz, Sal, and many others could probably write volumes.

That leads into an important topic, that hasn't really been discussed so far: The harvest of wild trout on stocked streams and the effects of that on the wild trout populations.

Neither this Smoky Mountain study or the recent PFBC study deals with this topic at all. Both studies deal with harvest on UNSTOCKED streams.

But in PA, stocking over wild trout is very common. It seems likely that the number of wild trout harvested in stocked streams (that hold wild trout) is probably much higher than the number of wild trout harvested in unstocked streams.

People were arguing about the possible effects of stocking in terms of territoriality and competition etc. but the far more obvious effect would be the increase in harvest of wild trout where hatchery trout are stocked.

Simply because stocking attracts larger number of anglers, and a large percentage who are harvest oriented.

Mike, has the PFBC done any studies on this? Do you think the combination of stocking and harvest has an impact on the wild trout streams where this is done?
 
troutbert,

how ya been??? anyways, that is a good question. i have seen, an observation mind you ;-) , that this is the very thing going on down here. one stream they stopped stocking is now getting no fisherman. along with that the wild browns are no longer being cropped off at 7 inches. i saw very many 10-14 inch trout down in that creek. alot more than in recent years when stocking was going on and people were harvesting. just an observation, but isnt that after all a flyfishermans most powerful tool ;-)
 
Why not just encourage anglers not to harvest first voluntarily rather than ramming regs down people's throats. It'll happen a lot quicker and easier......address the fisherman not the PFBC
 
well ohio as you may know by now, at least i hope you do, it is hard to get people to voluntarily do anything. much less than something they have been doing for years. in pa we have made the first day of trout season a tradition, and as part of the tradition, limiting out as fast as you can. now you want them to voluntarily stop. i really, really doubt it.
 
Of course if anglers practice C & R on wild trout streams there will be little impact on wild trout populations. Every study I've seen concludes that.
However, there are many anglers that don't practice C & R particularly on stocked wild trout streams. I'll bet 90% of all license buyers are in this category.
You cannot make a statement that it won't impact on stocked wild trout streams, many studies have been done regarding stocked wild trout in streams and the impacts on populations. I have a problem with lumping every brook trout stream in the 5 fish a day limit, but it's been proven time and again that stocking over wild trout impacts the wild population, and PFBC will tell you that if they are being honest about it. Mike in his report to the trout summit showed that the greatest changes in wild trout populations occur on streams where stocking is halted. Regardless of whether you believe stocking of hatchery fish over wild trout has an impact all the studies show it does.
Getting back to harvest on wild trout streams, I believe it is higher than what most people believe, especially opening weekend. PFBC could go out on opening weekend and survey all anglers on all streams to find this out, but they don't have the money. I still don't think we know what is happening on opening day for sure.
 
What else besides stocking does the PFBC have to offer landowners as an incentive to keep their land unposted?

Its a complicated issue and I think the PFBC does a good job coming up with a comprimise....none of us are completely happy, but we're all equally unhappy.
 
i think either tax breaks or flood insurance breaks are an option. either that or (landowners will love this) make all flowing water.....state owned.

heres a good question. if you owned 20 acres and a class a wild trout water flowed through it......would you post it? i would, except there would be a sign underneath saying fishing permitted by permit only with my number. i know a stream like this. the permit is free the landowner just wants to know who is on his land. cant say i blame him. the only difference is i would clear a parking area by the stream. i wouldnt close it off....but i would post it.
 
Well, Sal, I think you would be like most landowners then, thats why I believe there are several levels of catch-22 for the PFBC if they stopped stocking as much like many people want.

I would only post it only if the PFBC decided to stock it. I would hang up signs encouraginng C and R fishing and reminders to clean up your trash.
 
keep in mind, i would only do so to know whos on the land and to prohibit bullets flying under my fly :-D
 
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