Bad News for Mayflies

Has anyone seen mayfly hatches on PA trout streams improving? I don't have charts and graphs so just my observations but other than bug factories like the Delaware I don't see the hatches as dependable or large as years past. I don't see the massive and sustained Drakes and Sulphers and spinner falls like I saw 20 yrs ago on Penns and Sulphers down on Spring.
 
riverwhy wrote:
Maybe not decreased but more and more fragmented in many areas. And I would guess more managed than in the past. Cutting, spraying, manipulation of species, for example. I also wonder how they calculated forest land then compared to now. Would 1,000 Acres of clear cut mountain land in Potter in 1890 no longer be considered forested when that was obviously still its use and what it would revert to? Compared to 1,000 acres of heavy cut land today which I would guess would still be considered "forest land"?

If you look at the big picture of population growth, rapid development and increased consumption, in some parts of the world there is much reason to be gloomy.
But, I want some of the drugs these optimists are taking.

I have emailed the department of agriculture and asked what drugs they are on.....I will let you know their response.
 
Please don't misconstrue any of my posts as optimistic. I'm a card-carrying cynic.
 
When data was provided, the boy who cried wolf disappeared. Imagine that.

As far as dwindling hatch intensities in PA or surrounding waters.... nothing that I can confirm or deny. Things vary so much from year to year (water levels, temps, clarity, wind, fish population, etc) and I don't spend 200+ days on the water like I used to. I've seen incredible hatches in 1988 and in 2019. Some waters may have had decreased numbers of one species and increased numbers of a different one. Pollution, repeated floods scouring rivers or siltation? I will be more observant this year.
 
For the apple impaired among us, the article looked at a atudy of hexagenia in the western Lake Erie and Upper Mississippi areas and apparently noted a stark decrease in volume, I think by studying data through the massive clouds when these giant mayflies swarm, attributing it to fertilizer runoff. That's my synopsis. Personally I have seen a noticeable increase in more typical Pa. mayfly hatches on the Lehigh as they work on water quality and AMD remediation. Of course the gold standard is still the Upper D which is an absolute bug factory due to the vigilance of NYC. The streams in the Poconos also have incredible hatches in the headwaters where people are scarce .
 
Last year I was looking forward to Tricos. It was just a terrible year everywhere I looked for them in my area. I would say that one stream with very diminished hatches would be Falling Springs out by Chambersburg.
 
Yes, there are reasons to be concerned in parts of the world. There are also reasons that things are much better today as compared to years past. Obviously our water quality in Pennsylvania, all things considered, is vastly better than it was 50 years ago. While studies on wild trout back then we're probably scarce, now those studies are abundant and our fish our doing great. One study about mayflies regarding one watershed is not nearly enough evidence to be paranoid about the overall well being of mayflies. Yes, it is good these things are brought to the attention of people who care so that we can stay concerned and vigilant but it is not any reason to totally freak out.

And about our forests, why would the forests being more "managed" being a bad thing? Proper utilization and responsible stewardship is part of managing our forests. Pennsylvania does a great job at managing our public state forests for both responsible commercial exploitation as well as recreation. I truly think the state does a tremendous job with it's roughly 2.2 million acres of state forest......and that isn't counting the ANF since it is federal land.
 
krayfish2 wrote:
When data was provided, the boy who cried wolf disappeared. Imagine that.

SERIOUSLY? You wrote that at 8pm and its 9am and i just got on. Maybe you should get some sleep and you won't be so bitchy.

As I was going to say,...Fair enough, The US forest Service only came to be in 1905. So who was managing the forests before that?

The point is he didn't provide the data when he called the claim spin. Also by his own admission he his post was cynical and not optimistic of the claim in OP. Its OK to take everything with a grain of salt but encouraging the public to believe everything is spun is just irresponsible. Talk about the boy who cried wolf...


and its not going to get better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/climate/trump-environment-water.html

IF you don't like that source find another. They all say the same thing. As fishermen we should be concerned. But the economy is sooo good....
 
tomgamber wrote:
krayfish2 wrote:
When data was provided, the boy who cried wolf disappeared. Imagine that.

SERIOUSLY? You wrote that at 8pm and its 9am and i just got on. Maybe you should get some sleep and you won't be so bitchy.

As I was going to say,...Fair enough, The US forest Service only came to be in 1905. So who was managing the forests before that?

The point is he didn't provide the data when he called the claim spin. Also by his own admission he his post was cynical and not optimistic of the claim in OP. Its OK to take everything with a grain of salt but encouraging the public to believe everything is spun is just irresponsible. Talk about the boy who cried wolf...


and its not going to get better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/climate/trump-environment-water.html

IF you don't like that source find another. They all say the same thing. As fishermen we should be concerned. But the economy is sooo good....

Tom who is the "he" you are talking about?
 
You're the HE Dave. As you often do, you start by dismissing the article as hype or spin and then later backtrack slightly in case its actually true. It doesn't matter. I'm out. I don't care anymore. The thread is off track. All news is fake. You're right. Don't believe anything you read. There are not journalists out there just trying to do it right. They're all in it just for the money. I quit. Carry on.
 
Hi Tom,

I’m pretty sure I don’t call out individual journalist of doing any of those things and always have stated the news industry as my topic. The Mayfly article in point. I said “I don’t dismiss the article” and used it as way to transition to Nat Geo, media and the environment. I don’t believe I have ever used the words “fake news” on this site, I consider them a turnoff to me and other people. I’m pretty passive with my writing style and usually couch my words with sometimes, often, most of the time. I’m emotional, but not that confident in what I write to use words like that regularly. I don’t see me using the words “hype” or “spin”, in this thread. Please feel free to review my writings here on the site.

When I write about facts I try and make sure I can back them up. If I write how I feel I try and explain why.

I am proud that I distrust many things I hear. Much of the time I feel I should distrust what I’m told until I can verify that facts in the matter and consider any possible bias of the source. I was taught to do this in my high school US history class in tenth grade. My trust in news media and politicians has be going down for some time. I don’t think I’m alone with that statement especially as it relates to the media [Gallup source]. They have motives, as we all do. I’m still waiting for that yellow cake and WMD to show up in Iraq.

The National Geographic is owned in majority by the Walt Disney Company and we well know is publicly traded stock. Disney is projecting a +10% increase in sales and 0% increase in profits for 2020. National Geo doesn’t put out content to better the world, they do it so people will read the articles, NG can sell advertising, contribute to the bottom line of Disney and make the stockholders happy. I hope so I’m a Disney stockholder. If they don’t people will get fired.

They are a for profit business and not a non-profit.

A local TV station will pimp / teases a winter storm warning at 5:50, but make you wait until 6:25 and listen to ~10:00 minutes of car commercials until you finally find out there is only 30% chance of 1-3 inches. This is the same reason the milk is in the back far corner of the grocery store. You walk through all the alise with Little Debbies and Doritos before you get the milk while looking at the Reeses Cups in the check out lane. Businesses have a model and process to make money and that that’s ok.

Understanding the product you are consuming and the business model of the organization is simply an informed consumer.

Does National Geo provide false stories, of course not and don’t see I accused them of such a thing. They do create content that will cause an emotion and get people to react in a way that to watch or click that media. If they didn’t, they would be out of business. Like any business they can use selected information to create a narrative they want to project in a story. Nothing evil about that, just what they do.


I feel it is best for me to be an independent thinker on many topics and come to my on conclusions when I take the time to explore the facts. I know other people think differently about this topic and that’s fine. That’s my cynical nature and feel it has served me well in business and life.

As for backtracking on an issue, I apologize. I never thought I have done that, but will pay closer attention to what posts I’m participating in and follow through more diligently. Thank you for your feedback.

Dave

Gene I'm sorry I derailed your post.
 
Ah, winter is here. Back to the OP, I happened upon a relevant article about western Lake Erie and algae blooms attributed to high phosphorus attributed to an abundance of manure affecting water quality. Not sure about forest fires
 
dkile wrote:
They do create content that will cause an emotion and get people to react in a way that to watch or click that media. If they didn’t, they would be out of business. Like any business they can use selected information to create a narrative they want to project in a story. Nothing evil about that, just what they do.

You nailed it, Dave. That is exactly what we do. I say "we" because I've been a copywriter in marketing for 30 years. And I can honestly say I've NEVER lied or presented false information to help sell frozen entrees, freeze-dried coffee, or any other product in the past. No marbles in a bowl of soup, lol.

Truth is, we don't have to lie. As Dave said, we select the bits of information that would most most likely motivate a consumer. Then we stuff them in a sweet pie of a concept to draw attention to itself.
(Funny thing is, even with all the effectiveness testing we do, the focus groups, and the quantifyable algorithms on the digital side of marketing, much of it relies on this storytelling and gut feeling of the creators. Sometimes it doesn't work.)

But the basic technique of trying to select the right information and presenting it in the right way remains--whether the creators are trying to sell frozen food or National Geographic magazines.

If anything, advertising is more honest than some of the news pubs and magazines and other sources. We don't hide behind a facade of unbiased news and information. When you see a TV ad you know you're being pitched.

It must be up to the individual to discern how the information is being presented, by whom, and the true purpose.
 
>>Ah, winter is here. Back to the OP, I happened upon a relevant article about western Lake Erie and algae blooms attributed to high phosphorus attributed to an abundance of manure affecting water quality.>>

I think this is right and there is a good chance it is the primary source for any factors reducing Lake Erie Hex populations. The Maumee River watershed is the single largest contributing drainage basin to the Great Lakes and is responsible for 5% of the water in Lake Erie It has a lot of problems. A long, (160 miles-plus) river that hosts intensive amounts of agriculture and has a long history of phosphate and fertilizer issues. Neither of the hosting states, Indiana and Ohio, have a very strong reputation for WQ enforcement. This situation is often amplified when the problems are agricultural in origin, which regulators almost everywhere have traditionally been more lax about. Add it up and its a mess...
 
I never could get to the article for some reason(s).

But, it sounds like things are messy.

Sorry to have to see Dave K. have to write such a justification on his own site. Geez....
 
I actually go to the grocery store for little Debbie cakes and view milk as an impulse buy. LoL. Please reference my guy and pastey skin color if you think I'm lying.
 
dkile wrote:
Hi Tom,

I’m pretty sure I don’t call out individual journalist of doing any of those things and always have stated the news industry as my topic. The Mayfly article in point. I said “I don’t dismiss the article” and used it as way to transition to Nat Geo, media and the environment. I don’t believe I have ever used the words “fake news” on this site, I consider them a turnoff to me and other people. I’m pretty passive with my writing style and usually couch my words with sometimes, often, most of the time. I’m emotional, but not that confident in what I write to use words like that regularly. I don’t see me using the words “hype” or “spin”, in this thread. Please feel free to review my writings here on the site.

When I write about facts I try and make sure I can back them up. If I write how I feel I try and explain why.

I am proud that I distrust many things I hear. Much of the time I feel I should distrust what I’m told until I can verify that facts in the matter and consider any possible bias of the source. I was taught to do this in my high school US history class in tenth grade. My trust in news media and politicians has be going down for some time. I don’t think I’m alone with that statement especially as it relates to the media [Gallup source]. They have motives, as we all do. I’m still waiting for that yellow cake and WMD to show up in Iraq.

The National Geographic is owned in majority by the Walt Disney Company and we well know is publicly traded stock. Disney is projecting a +10% increase in sales and 0% increase in profits for 2020. National Geo doesn’t put out content to better the world, they do it so people will read the articles, NG can sell advertising, contribute to the bottom line of Disney and make the stockholders happy. I hope so I’m a Disney stockholder. If they don’t people will get fired.

They are a for profit business and not a non-profit.

A local TV station will pimp / teases a winter storm warning at 5:50, but make you wait until 6:25 and listen to ~10:00 minutes of car commercials until you finally find out there is only 30% chance of 1-3 inches. This is the same reason the milk is in the back far corner of the grocery store. You walk through all the alise with Little Debbies and Doritos before you get the milk while looking at the Reeses Cups in the check out lane. Businesses have a model and process to make money and that that’s ok.

Understanding the product you are consuming and the business model of the organization is simply an informed consumer.

Does National Geo provide false stories, of course not and don’t see I accused them of such a thing. They do create content that will cause an emotion and get people to react in a way that to watch or click that media. If they didn’t, they would be out of business. Like any business they can use selected information to create a narrative they want to project in a story. Nothing evil about that, just what they do.


I feel it is best for me to be an independent thinker on many topics and come to my on conclusions when I take the time to explore the facts. I know other people think differently about this topic and that’s fine. That’s my cynical nature and feel it has served me well in business and life.

As for backtracking on an issue, I apologize. I never thought I have done that, but will pay closer attention to what posts I’m participating in and follow through more diligently. Thank you for your feedback.

Dave

Gene I'm sorry I derailed your post.
That makes perfect sense. Articles speak the truth (based on the data analyzed) but also serve a corporate purpose.
 
A possible spin on the discussion on possible spin, spun out of control.

Who woulda thunk.
 
So if all the mayflies die, thus making "fly"- fishing obsolete, will this website become PASF (PA Spin Fishing), PABF (PA Bait Fishing) or possibly PALF (PA Lure Fishing)??

Just wonderin'...? ;-)
 
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