At what expense???

[wgmiller]

http://www.wgal.com/money/22242183/detail.html

Nothing in life is "free" and I feel that we will ultimately pay in one way or another for this "gold rush"...

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

At the expense of tax payer clean up, a horrible environment and sportsman taking their families out of state.

Good Job! :roll:

 

[osprey]

wgMiller...........in the lat 70's early 80's i worked a couple summers doing oil/gas exploration (i was laid off from the steel mill) during that time James Watt was secretary of the Interior and opened all National Parks and federal land to exploration , it was at that time done to inventory our reserves. Those "doodlebugger crews" were all over the place here in Pa , especially in the Laurel Highlands. The name of the company i worked for was United Geophysical a subsidiary of Bendix Corp. , we started in the Somerset area , our shop or home base was in Oakland Md and we went the whole way to the Knoxville Tenn area. Thirty years ago we did it and when i get around those areas now and bring it up that i worked for them i still get ugly looks and comments , it wasn't received well then and it won't be received well now. I know for sure that the landowners remember them and not fondly. When you start to see small fleets of vehicles (with the logos all the same and of that ilk) running around like gypsies get ready. I know of one completed well head , the drill rig was there all summer , along rt 31 in somerset county near the town of Roxbury. I know of one drilling operation still working , near Windber. Keep your eyes open and you'll notice them around. In my opinion the drilling is far more damaging and has the potential to be disastrous if the right precautions aren't taken. The damage from the exploration part i'd compare to "select harvest" timbering.

 

[wgmiller]

I think it's a fallacy to think that this "boom" will create local jobs. As many have mentioned with regards to this topic, these workers aren't local and are from all across the country. The only people profiting from this are the politicians.

I'm still at a loss to figure out where the copious amounts of water will come from to support all these different operations. There absolutely has to be a negative impact on everything that depends on water to survive.

 

[salvelinus]

I recently received a letter from a Wellsboro surveying company under the auspices of Ultra Resources, one of the perps in this fiasco. They were notifying me of a proposed well because our property is within 2500 feet of the site, and by law they must test our well water before drilling starts. I told them I when samples are taken I want split samples so that I may also have an independent lab test the sample.

When I called the surveyors office to convey this information, I spoke with a nice lady who didn't seem too enthused about the drilling. I asked her just how many wells were planned in the area and she said that "it will look like mile markers". My wife and I had hoped to retire to our cabin someday. Now I wonder if there will be anything worthwhile retiring to. 5000 permits on state land alone? Plus how many more on private land? Yeah, I can see this is going to be done strictly by the book. I will be doing most of my fishing near home if they start drilling this spring. Who wants to be around that noise and pollution? I don't.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

look me up Sal. Im in Lancaster. Im sure we can get into some decent fishing this spring and im not talking about Conoy Creek either :lol:

 

[grhe]

Salvelinus, I'm up your way too with a place near Carter Camp. Just got the place for the great fishing and nature back in 2006. Thought we would retire there too. Any stream map shows that the area has the greatest concentration of clean water and native trout streams in the whole state. I can't believe what's going on up there now with all the drilling etc. Hard to believe that, after only a few short years, the greed and short-sightedness by many of the people up there could turn God's Country into a wasteland. Also very hard for me to believe that the DEP and the PA fish commission would let all this happen smack dab in the middle of all the exceptional value watersheds.

 

[salvelinus]

grhe, we got our place in June 2008. Several of us had been going up to one of Steve's cabins in Oleona for a dozen years. Found this place and fell in love with it. My wife loves it too and she doesn't fish. It's the peace and solitude. We can only hope for the best but this isn't one of those glass half full kind of outlooks for me. I don't think the locals realize what's going to happen, all they see is the money for which I cannot really blame them. They have been sold a line of crap from these energy companies and I fear we will all live to regret it.

 

[pcray1231]

I grew up in Western PA where the wells, drilled 50 years ago, truly do look like "mile markers." Most of the ANF is like that, for instance.

Guys there could/will be problems. I have nothing against doing everything possible to keep those problems to a minimum. In fact, we need to. But to say an entire area is going to be completely ruined for all outdoor activity is a bit ridiculous. 99% of them will have no spills, though 1 in a hundred is still a problem. All of them will be loud, obnoxious and muddy as the drilling is being done. The water usage has to be CLOSELY monitored. But when all is said and done, a smallish green tank and meter will be all that is left behind, perhaps a logging road where they don't already exist, and an extra pipeline or two (which make GREAT small game cover, BTW).

In the ANF, if you spend any time in the woods, you come across these tanks every quarter mile or so. From what I understand Marcellus wells will be spaced somewhat further apart due to horizontal drilling. The woods will still be filled with trees, wildlife and trout streams. This isn't like strip mining.

 

[mrflyfish]

I heard this morning Gov. Randall is pushing for a well tax now the state leases have been sold off.
Wkyw 1160 from phily stated that this morning.
I found the link:
http://www.kyw1060.com/Rendell-Again-Backs-Natural-Gas-Drilling-in-Pa-/6140901
Time to push for oversight and clean up with the proceeds.

 

[grhe]

pcray and others, I understand your thoughts, but I would have to respectfully disagree. Marcellus wells are not the straight-drilled wells from 50 years ago in the ANF. We are talking about clearing roughly 5 acres for just one well pad itself, drilling 5,000 or more feet down, then going up to 2 miles horizontally down there and injecting millions of gallons of water(taken from our trout streams), with a mixture of toxic chemicals and fracturing shale deep down in the earth that was meant to stay there. What gets pulled back up is a toxic mixture of water, chemicals, radioactive elements and who knows what, which we are totally incapable of disposing of. Thousands of these wells are forecasted. I really don't think it's extreme to be concerned about something like that all over God's Country. As Salvelinus, myself and many others have done over the years, my wife and I, and many of our friends have camped, fished, hunted and now even invested our own hard earned money in buying a place in Potter County, because we love the outdoors, loved the absolute peace, quiet and serenity it provided and truly believed we had found a place that could provide all those wonderful things. Now, with the bill of goods sold to all the people born and raised there by the drilling companies for easy riches for their mineral rights, I truly fear, and believe the evidence shows, that the whole area, our clean water and the last stronghold of our state fish is in real jeopardy. I hope and pray I am wrong. If anyone wishes to further educate themselves on the real procedures and risks of Marcellus shale drilling and fracking to our water and environment in Northcentral PA, I would highly recommend you look at the Trout Unlimited website which had a press release on the issue on 1/13 and a great article titled, "Marcellus Shale: Pipe Dreams in Pennsylvania." Perhaps someone who is more computer savvy than me could post a link to the article on this site. I would also recommend a review of the gas leasing section on propublica.org and some google searches on what has already happened in Dimock, PA---including a you tube video about it. To me, this all poses a risk that needs to be dealt with on the front end, not once it's too late. Trout Unlimited and the watershed conservation groups on the First Fork, Kettle Creek, Pine Creek etc. can all plant a thousand trees a day and erect stream and habitat improvement devices from the headwaters of every trib to the mouth of every big creek, but once the water's poisoned from underground up, it ain't gonna come back.

 

[RLeep2]

Nobody really knows what is going to happen in terms of damage, etc. once this gets going full bore. There are two reasons for this: 1) This sort of extraction process involves a lot of geological and hydrological factors that have a very limited real world track record in terms of impact. 2) It is not disparaging, only telling the truth to note that one of the guiding principles of business is to minimize costs and maximize returns. This means that the people doing the work here are going to have to be watched like hawks, not because they want to do anything wrong or take shortcuts, but because of the nature of all enterprise.

This is also a classic urban/rural standoff. Rural PA isn't doing all that well economically. It's young people flee as soon as they leave school. Small town business has been decimated by the entire mall/big box thing. It's hard to tell these folks they don't have the right to grab for the brass ring and that they must continue to live as they are so that their woods and waters can remain playgrounds for people escaping from the urban centers.

It's a mess.

I guess the one redeeming thing I see in it all (given that I've been away a while and don't know if Rendell's DEP is worth a hoot) is that I know that John Arway and his folks at Env. Services at the Commission will be on the side of the resource in this. I don't know how much they can do, I only know John's sensibilities are in the right place. I also have a lot of confidence in PATU to do what they can.

I think it'll be OK. I hope so. Although the ultimate solution might be to get a big enough war chest to be able to hire a brigade of lawyers with teeth all the way to their rib cages. If you read the news, you'll note that the entire NYC water supply Catskill watershed has been exempted from drilling, IIRC. This wasn't done out of the goodness of somebody's heart, you can bet on that. It was done because the city has the resources to make it happen. Lots of lawyers with teeth all the way to their rib cages...

 

[pcray1231]

grhe,

A Marcellus well went in behind my dad's place last year (not his property). It was more like 1 acre that was cleared. Lots more trucks than the old wells, but thankfully the drilling part is over now, and the well itself looks the same as the 10 other wells within a mile radius of his place.

The old wells used the very same frackwater. The difference in Marcellus is that they are deeper, and incorporate horizontal drilling as a way to minimize the increased cost of drilling deeper. As far as spillage concerns, this means there is little difference, as the practices, and rules, for all areas above the water table are unchanged. What happens 5000 feet deep is totally meaningless to the streams. If anything, the fracking going on thousands of feet, instead of hundreds, below the water table lessens the danger of methane seepage from depth into the water table. The danger to the water table is still in the top couple of hundred feet of the drill hole. The drilling companies must properly seal this top area, and failure of the seals results in frackwater contamination or methane contamination of the water supply. But again, this aspect is no different than those old wells. While there were incidents back then, and have been already with the new wells, the overall success of this is statistically good. That doesn't mean they shouldn't improve, if 0.5% of wells leak, but you have thousands of wells, well thats still too many.

Thousands of Marcellus wells aren't that many. Currently, on the ANF itself, there are over 9000 working gas wells, and at least double that many that are no longer functioning. Overall in PA, there are already roughly 80,000 working gas wells, and many more that are no longer working. And these wells are spread over a smaller area than Marcellus looks to take on, so its fair to say the density of Marcellus wells will be considerably lower, which makes sense given the horizontal drilling.

The main difference that I can see, is the vastly increased volume of water used. While the old regulations need to be enforced, this is what leads to "new" issues that need to be addressed:

1. We need to be sure we have a system to effectively govern where and when they can take water. If they take it from a river during the high water of April, no problem. If they take it from a little stream in the low water of August, huge problem!

2. This will place vastly increased demand on treatment plants. We need to make sure the waste is being handled effectively, and increase facilities if needed.

3. This means a lot more trucks will be using our roads and bridges until the new wells are drilled. The drilling companies either should have to help maintain the roads, or at least be forced to reimburse PennDot and the townships.

I'm not claiming that this is a pleasant thing thats going on in our state, or that you shouldn't have any concerns. I just think the doomsday thoughts that entire areas will be totally ruined for outdoor recreation is vastly overplayed. You should be watchful and report anything that looks suspicious. You have the right to be a little upset about whats happening. But your comment that Potter County will become a "wasteland", IMO, is very off base.

 

[grhe]

www.gaslandthemovie.com

 

[pcray1231]

yeah, a sundance film festival documentary is a great place to get unbiased information. lol.

I'm sure what is seen in that video has happened somewhere at sometime. There are incidents and they need to be investigated. When they happen those responsible should pay out their a$$es to compensate the victims, and I mean all the victims not just those who own the land. But don't make the mistake of thinking thats the typical result.

Parts of PA already have as many wells/area as any area in the country. We've been living with gas and its effects for many years. To be sure, there are some new issues with Marcellus that need to be closely monitored. But for the most part, if your area is new to gas wells, and you want to see the effects it has on the environment, you need to do nothing more than take a drive.

 

[RLeep2]

I'm curious what sort of steel (316,420,special alloy, etc.) is used in the drill bits for these sorts of operations...

By and large, I don't think PCray's take is all that far off, although I still am very wary about things we cannot know because we have not had these sorts of operations before. The history of extraction operations are loaded with these "it won't hurt that much" arguments and then the thing becomes catastrophic.

Still, historically the biggest impact of gas wells in PA has been the footprint from set-up and drilling. Once it's done, even with a fair amount of brine seepage, things have not been that bad.

But this footprint thing is significant. There are entire watersheds in the traditional PA oil/gas patch where you can see how wild trout pops wax and wane in direct parallel with oil and gas activity. This isn't anecdotal. You can go to the Commission Area 2 stream survey files and see for yourself.

 

[pcray1231]

RLee,

They do use a number of steels, and yes the company I work for does a fair bit of business in the drilling industry, though more in oil than gas. That said, we also do work for nuclear, coal, wind, fuel cells, etc. In other words, I don't think we have a dog in the fight, we're in the business of supplying solutions to whoever asks.

Either way, I'm somewhat knowledgable in the material solutions for the power industry, and that requires at least a base knowledge of the techniques. Some of the stuff that the oil industry has planned would blow your mind, not so much environmentally but its just mind boggling how it could be profitable. Plus, as I said, I've seen the Marcellus wells go in (not attached to work responsibilities).

I definitely have concerns and I'm not shying away from that, there are definitely dangers here. But if all we do is complain that the sky is falling and spout ridiculousness, then we rightfully get ignored as sensationalists, and have no power to confront realistic dangers.

The footprint thing is significant. It tends to be temporary for a given location, as those areas grow back over. But active drilling projects are definitely on a huge increase across a large area, and while the effects of a given site might be temporary, a given watershed sized area, for instance, may have more lengthy activity. It is a form of development, which is dangerous.

 

[wgmiller]

I've seen what some of those streams and waterways can look like in the summer months. Where are the millions of gallons to run each well going to come from without completely drying up a waterway?

http://www.tu.org/press_releases/2010/tu-concerned-about-fish-and-wildlife-protection-as-pa-leases-new-state-forest-la

 

[jayL]

pcray1231 wrote:
I definitely have concerns and I'm not shying away from that, there are definitely dangers here. But if all we do is complain that the sky is falling and spout ridiculousness, then we rightfully get ignored as sensationalists, and have no power to confront realistic dangers.

I'm quoting this because it is well said, and very important.

 

[RLeep2]

PCray: Twas just a gentle tweak and well fielded on your part..

I worked for a number of years in the power industry (control valves and giant pipe cleaners called "soot blowers") You guys and AM Castle probably supplied 80% of the bar and tube stock we used.

I have no doubt of your sincerity or motivation and I think you're mostly accurate and feet-on-the-ground realistic in your take on this thing. Still, there will be conflicts and there will be damage. Most of it will be transitory and related to the set-up and drilling of the wells themselves, I tend to believe.

I remain skeptical though about assurances that the fracking, given it is so deep, will not impact water tables and groundwater flows and supplies. Given the proposed scale of operations and given the somewhat meager track record we have regarding these sorts of ops in geologies of PA's type, there's a lot that we may not know.

All in all, it's gonna happen anyway. So, lacking the resources to hire a phalanx of lawyers like NYC has done and drive the plunderers out of the village, the best we can do is demand a short leash on these ops. I don't know what the PA well bonding laws are like these days. But if they aren't already, I'd like to see them made strong enough to bankrupt anybody who is deliberately negligent.