Angler C&R rates (possible error on my part)

[tomitrout]

I'm not selling anybody short, and not saying anybody's voice should be placed above any others, I just don't think your sampling is a true statistical representation of the angling body as a whole, that's all.

You guys like to take Mike to task about his angler survey methods, why shouldn't yours also be questioned?

 

[Mike]

Codorus is not a Limestoner in the wild trout stretch. This is not arguable, given the water chemistry. It is considered to be a limestone influenced stream with alkalinities well below the limestoner threshold.

The Codorus example fits the problem presented by Chaz in that a wild trout population was over harvested by intensive fishing pressure generated by the stocking program. That it was Browns does not matter; the population was severely depressed and clearly vulnerable to harvest, as brookies would have been. The DH reg allowed the wild trout population to flourish in Codorus...as Chaz suggested for E Licking. Now he worries about harvest from ATW anglers in an adjacent section. Codorus has an adjacent ATW also. Those anglers already showed that they could crop off a wild brown population in Codorus, yet it no longer happened under DH. Chaz raised the issue of harvest, not delayed hooking mortality, a 7 inch size limit, or bait fishing, or season length. I responded to the harvest and cropping concern. Period. Frankly, I was surprised that he chose that particular part of the proposal. You brought up other reasonable concerns, the ones I would have expected, but that was not what Chaz was writing about. I have no obligation to initiate discussion of those factors when they are not the topic of discussion (Chaz's comments), especially when there is a Commission proposal on the table.

 

[afishinado]

tomitrout wrote:
I'm not selling anybody short, and not saying anybody's voice should be placed above any others, I just don't think your sampling is a true statistical representation of the angling body as a whole, that's all.

You guys like to take Mike to task about his angler survey methods, why shouldn't yours also be questioned?

Hey TT,

If you look at my post, I'm not taking any surveys and I stated they were "unsolicited comments"....no "survey methods" at all.

Second, I simply stated that the thousands of anglers looking for DH or C&R are not properly represented with

 

[CRB]

Mike
What waters were the creel survey's taken?

All open waters? or Mix? Type of Mix?

Same percent as SR(Special Regulations) to Open waters?

Chris

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Yes of course but it IS a tailwater, far different than a infertile freestone stream with a whole different species of fish that are programmed a whole different way.

I don't see how comparing apples and oranges equals apples.

Blanket regs don't work for every watershed.

 

[tomitrout]

If you look at my post, I'm not taking any surveys and I stated they were "unsolicited comments"....no "survey methods" at all

.

That's fine, then I guess I misunderstood your statement that:

In the minority, are the anglers that want to catch and keep everything they land; sometimes within the limit, and sometimes not....they fish for food. They fish many streams day in and day out and deplete them to a point where very few anglers even bother to fish. Check out the angler count a few weeks after stocking on most ATW's.

So, you're not applying this statement to the angling population as a whole then, but to just the small sampling that walks thru the door of your shop? Reading your posts, to me it seems as though you're taking your select sample and advocating that their opinions (which for the most part we both share btw) apply across the board.

And so I'm still curious what the results of your thousands of conversations would be if they were held at the cash register of BassPro, ****s or even your local WallMart...

Kudos for giving these opinions a voice and the work you do educating and adding to the ranks. But unfortunately, we flyfishing, C&R regardless of the Regs fisherfolk are a minority slice of the big pie. We are vocal, that's for sure, but we are also just a small drop in the license revenue bucket and that's where the loudest voice originates and is what is listened to. A review of the recent Class A stocking debacle is the perfect example of this.

 

[troutbert]

What is the typical "Stockie Depletion Rate", or "Stockie Removal Rate" on stocked streams?

Suppose 1000 trout are stocked. At the end of Opening Weekend, how many have been removed, and how many are left?

At the end of 1 week?

2 weeks?

3 weeks?

Surely this has been studied.

And how does this compare to the situation on DH areas?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

So, you're not applying this statement to the angling population as a whole then, but to just the small sampling that walks thru the door of your shop? Reading your posts, to me it seems as though you're taking your select sample and advocating that their opinions (which for the most part we both share btw) apply across the board. And so I'm still curious what the results of your thousands of conversations would be if they were held at the cash register of BassPro, ****s or even your local WallMart... Kudos for giving these opinions a voice and the work you do educating and adding to the ranks. But unfortunately, we flyfishing, C&R regardless of the Regs fisherfolk are a minority slice of the big pie. We are vocal, that's for sure, but we are also just a small drop in the license revenue bucket and that's where the loudest voice originates and is what is listened to. A review of the recent Class A stocking debacle is the perfect example of this.

Agreed but both afish and the commish are really only sampling.

I would rather all these reg changes be but on hold for 3 years. Simpily have a small 5 question mandatory questionnaire handed to all anglers purchasing license. Only has to be filled out once by each person buying a lisence in the 3 year stretch.

Let's really see what people want rather than making assumptions.
Since assumptions are all we have, the commish data shows anglers wanting more SR areas and more anglers practicing C&R.
So........let's not make more?

 

[afishinado]

tomitrout wrote:

If you look at my post, I'm not taking any surveys and I stated they were "unsolicited comments"....no "survey methods" at all

.

That's fine, then I guess I misunderstood your statement that:

In the minority, are the anglers that want to catch and keep everything they land; sometimes within the limit, and sometimes not....they fish for food. They fish many streams day in and day out and deplete them to a point where very few anglers even bother to fish. Check out the angler count a few weeks after stocking on most ATW's.

So, you're not applying this statement to the angling population as a whole then, but to just the small sampling that walks thru the door of your shop? Reading your posts, to me it seems as though you're taking your select sample and advocating that their opinions (which for the most part we both share btw) apply across the board.

And so I'm still curious what the results of your thousands of conversations would be if they were held at the cash register of BassPro, ****s or even your local WallMart...

Kudos for giving these opinions a voice and the work you do educating and adding to the ranks. But unfortunately, we flyfishing, C&R regardless of the Regs fisherfolk are a minority slice of the big pie. We are vocal, that's for sure, but we are also just a small drop in the license revenue bucket and that's where the loudest voice originates and is what is listened to. A review of the recent Class A stocking debacle is the perfect example of this.

Yes, my statement, "In the minority, are the anglers that want to catch and keep everything they land..." is applying to the angler population as a whole. The info in am referencing is from the
OP:

Here is what I found:
From the contracted, professionally developed Pa trout angler telephone survey...
1991: 75% of stocked trout anglers said they released half of their catch.
2008: 88% of stocked trout anglers said they released half of their catch.

From PFBC angler use and harvest surveys in the field: 2004/2005
Statewide stocked trout stream survey: When summing the angler interviews conducted full time throughout the spring 63% of trout caught were released, 61% of anglers did not harvest a trout, and 35% of anglers did not catch a trout.

For the third time, I am voicing the opinion of many on here as well as many of the anglers I talk to all the time. I'm am sure there are others angler groups that disagree and want everything open to harvest and bait fishing. The whole idea is everyone gives their opinion and the Commish makes a decision, based on that. I'm trying to get all those that believe in C&R to voice their opinion and be heard.

Again for the third time, C&R anglers should have voice in policy since they too buy licenses. 99% to 1% is not a fair ratio of open harvest to DH/CR. And there is a proposal to diminish part of the 1% by opening it up to harvest earlier and allowing bait fishing.

Tomitrout,

I have no idea what point you are trying to make by continuing to mention the anglers that buy from "BassPro, ****s or even your local WallMart..." They all have an opportunity to voice their opinions. I can only try to express the opinions of the majority of people I talk to everyday and vast majority of anglers on this site.

 

[JackM]

Afish, I think tomi's point is that PAFF members and Orvis customers are not typical license buyers, but rather an elite subset. I agree with this, but it doesn't alter my opinion that these proposed changes are not justified. What is so wrong with using spoecial regulations to encourage a more responsible use of a stocked resource. Mandatory C & R has probably contributed a lot to the voluntary C & R on ATWs.

 

[afishinado]

JackM wrote:
Afish, I think tomi's point is that PAFF members and Orvis customers are not typical license buyers, but rather an elite subset. I agree with this, but it doesn't alter my opinion that these proposed changes are not justified. What is so wrong with using spoecial regulations to encourage a more responsible use of a stocked resource. Mandatory C & R has probably contributed a lot to the voluntary C & R on ATWs.

For the [d]third[/d] fourth time, I am voicing the opinion of many on here as well as many of the anglers I talk to all the time. I'm am sure there are others angler groups that disagree and want everything open to harvest and bait fishing. The whole idea is everyone gives their opinion and the Commish makes a decision, based on that. I'm trying to get all those that believe in C&R to voice their opinion and be heard.

Again for the [d]third[/d] fourth time, C&R anglers should have a voice in policy since they too buy licenses. 99% to 1% is not a fair ratio of open harvest to DH/CR. And there is a proposal to diminish part of the 1% by opening it up to harvest earlier and allowing bait fishing.

Jack, the "elite" should have a voice too and policy should account for the these elite desires and preferences. I contend, the elite is being short changed right now and the changes proposed will turn nickels into pennies.

 

[ValleyBrown]

I understand that managing each stream on a case by case basis is probably too much to ask, however I don't think that generalizing C &R/harvest rates across the state is an effective tool for management policies. I live in Westmoreland county and fish mostly in Fayette county. Should I be expected to have to drive 2-3 hours to have a reliable trout fishing experience by early May? I guess I should because nature has decided that for me already in the purest form but we are beyond questioning manipulation of nature.

DHALO is infinitely more important to people in my specific situation than others with natural reproduction in their backyards. Creeks like Meadow Run and Loyalhanna are incredibly valuable to me and those around me after Dunbar Creek is totally poached out and waters stocked by local sportsman's clubs are harvested or the water warms. I can't say for sure but I would bet C&R anglers are by far and away the minority in Fayette county but like others have mentioned, we are still under-represented by SRs.

 

[Maurice]

ValleyBrown wrote:
I understand that managing each stream on a case by case basis is probably too much to ask, however I don't think that generalizing C &R/harvest rates across the state is an effective tool for management policies. I live in Westmoreland county and fish mostly in Fayette county. Should I be expected to have to drive 2-3 hours to have a reliable trout fishing experience by early May? I guess I should because nature has decided that for me already in the purest form but we are beyond questioning manipulation of nature.

DHALO is infinitely more important to people in my specific situation than others with natural reproduction in their backyards. Creeks like Meadow Run and Loyalhanna are incredibly valuable to me and those around me after Dunbar Creek is totally poached out and waters stocked by local sportsman's clubs are harvested or the water warms. I can't say for sure but I would bet C&R anglers are by far and away the minority in Fayette county but like others have mentioned, we are still under-represented by SRs.

^^ +1 ValleyBrown. This is my feeling too because that is where my roots lie in fishing. SR areas having fish longer and in the fall is what fueled my passion it is a shame to take that opportunity away from anglers or dilute it for a disproportionate number of license buyers.

 

[JackM]

Tom, no need to report it a fifth time. I thought you were genuinely wondering what his reference to the riff-raff was all about.

 

[CRB]

afishinado wrote:

JackM wrote:
Afish, I think tomi's point is that PAFF members and Orvis customers are not typical license buyers, but rather an elite subset. I agree with this, but it doesn't alter my opinion that these proposed changes are not justified. What is so wrong with using spoecial regulations to encourage a more responsible use of a stocked resource. Mandatory C & R has probably contributed a lot to the voluntary C & R on ATWs.

For the [d]third[/d] fourth time, I am voicing the opinion of many on here as well as many of the anglers I talk to all the time. I'm am sure there are others angler groups that disagree and want everything open to harvest and bait fishing. The whole idea is everyone gives their opinion and the Commish makes a decision, based on that. I'm trying to get all those that believe in C&R to voice their opinion and be heard.

Again for the [d]third[/d] fourth time, C&R anglers should have a voice in policy since they too buy licenses. 99% to 1% is not a fair ratio of open harvest to DH/CR. And there is a proposal to diminish part of the 1% by opening it up to harvest earlier and allowing bait fishing.

Jack, the "elite" should have a voice too and policy should account for the these elite desires and preferences. I contend, the elite is being short changed right now and the changes proposed will turn nickels into pennies.

I wonder how much of the Dingle-Johnson Act tax monies comes from the "elite" of PA.