Angler C&R rates (possible error on my part)

[Mike]

In the past two weeks the 70% C&R number for stocked trout streams and anglers has been mentioned a few times here. I have said in the past that on any given day 70% of the anglers go fishless in stocked trout streams. That number has included those anglers who are practicing C&R on general stocked trout streams. In the late 1980's and early 1990's that amounted to about 10% of the anglers on general stocked trout stream.

If I said at one point that in more recent years that 70% of the anglers are C&R anglers on stocked trout streams, then that was an error. If I recall correctly, however, that is the figure that some have used here. In searching this week, I was unable to find that number in a PFBC publication.

Here is what I found:
From the contracted, professionally developed Pa trout angler telephone survey...
1991: 75% of stocked trout anglers said they released half of their catch.
2008: 88% of stocked trout anglers said they released half of their catch.

From PFBC angler use and harvest surveys in the field: 2004/2005
Statewide stocked trout stream survey: When summing the angler interviews conducted full time throughout the spring 63% of trout caught were released, 61% of anglers did not harvest a trout, and 35% of anglers did not catch a trout.

PFBC statewide wild trout stream survey: 92% of trout caught were released.

 

[JackM]

Moral of the story: if regulations encourage or allow harvest and advertise the stocking of trout, a good bit of anglers will harvest up to the limits of their ability.

Amirite?

 

[Fishidiot]

Mike wrote:
1991: 75% of stocked trout anglers said they released half of their catch.
2008: 88% of stocked trout anglers said they released half of their catch.

PFBC statewide wild trout stream survey: 92% of trout caught were released.

My guess would be that the surveys are an accurate reflection of what my personal experience has revealed (not that my experience trumps the surveys - it doesn't).
The modest, 13% increase in C&R anglers on ATWs is about what I would expect over those years.
Interesting.
It's not a full proof picture, but I think a good survey and indicative of changing trends among PA anglers.

 

[Fishidiot]

So, I think we can conclude from the data that we need more C&R sections in PA....wouldn't yuh agree Mike?

 

[vcregular]

Fisherman lie. The anglers fear with those telephone poles is that answering truthfully will lead to even more restrictive regs. So why answer truthfully? I don't disagree though that overall the trend is less harvest in general.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

So, I think we can conclude from the data that we need more C&R sections in PA....wouldn't yuh agree Mike?

No we need DHALO areas with increased utilization from other fishing techniques and more anglers to make sure we properly utilize those 2% of pesky fish.

 

[Mike]

Fishidiot:

I understood the humerous "got-ya." (And smiled at it).

I think that there is something worth considering in this relatively sequestered forum and that is that for all of the demand for more C&R waters expressed here, outside demand is low. It seems that C&R anglers, both part time and full time, are in great part satisfied with being able to C&R on their own without having to be regulated into doing so and they don't seem to need a place that is set aside for that purpose.

 

[dshaffer]

Sorry, I can't let this go. Then every one should eat vanilla ice cream and be satisfied?..........Really?

 

[ebroesicke]

Mike:

I am not a math guy and maybe I don't understand your survey results, but isn't it possible the limiting factor of how many fish were released is what the limit was?

ie. If I go trout fishing and keep my limit, then keep fishing and release another amount equal to that limit, I can say I released 50% of fish.

 

[afishinado]

Mike wrote:
Fishidiot:

I understood the humerous "got-ya." (And smiled at it).

I think that there is something worth considering in this relatively sequestered forum and that is that for all of the demand for more C&R waters expressed here, outside demand is low. It seems that C&R anglers, both part time and full time, are in great part satisfied with being able to C&R on their own without having to be regulated into doing so and they don't seem to need a place that is set aside for that purpose.

Hey Mike,

I talk to thousands of anglers and listen to what they have to say (unsolicited comments). I invite you to come to the shop and talk to every angler that comes in the door. Your characterization of today's anglers preferences may change. They buy a fishing license and nearly every angler will they you they are looking for a quality fishing experience. For most anglers, the biggest part of a quality fishing experience is catching a decent amount of fish. Most practice C&R because they want to come back to the stream, river or lake and catch more fish and have another quality fishing experience....they fish for fun!

In the minority, are the anglers that want to catch and keep everything they land; sometimes within the limit, and sometimes not....they fish for food. They fish many streams day in and day out and deplete them to a point where very few anglers even bother to fish. Check out the angler count a few weeks after stocking on most ATW's.

In PA, 99% of the stream miles are open harvest with a five trout limit. If there were more C&R / DH areas, anglers would still be there fishing, even weeks after a stocking. The amount to anglers that utilize SR areas before the open season and later in the season proves that point.

Many, if not most anglers I speak to are growing more and more dissatisfied with the amount of trout stocked and the frequency of stocking. We all know, given the budget crunch, making due with less stocked fish is a reality. The logical way forward would be to stretch out the season and stretch out the fish by opening up more C&R / DH areas and extend the quality fishing season. We can no longer afford to allow the minority of anglers to harvest the majority of trout in all streams. Some water should be set aside for those that fish for fun and release their catch to return another day to have another quality fishing experience. I can tell you that 99% of the anglers are not catch and keep anglers. A ratio of 99 to 1 in no way reflects angler preferences in this day and age.

The same can be said for wild trout streams. There is not good reason why 99% of wild trout stream miles have a five fish limit. Wild trout are way to valuable to be cropped out as soon as they finally grow to a decent size.

Things have changed. Anglers are looking for a quality fishing experience rather than a bag of trout....plus the bag is getting lighter every year! The FBC has to change with the times to turn this thing around.

 

[CRB]

"I talk to thousands of anglers and listen to what they have to say (unsolicited comments). I invite you to come to the shop and talk to every angler that comes in the door. Your characterization of today's anglers preferences may change. They buy a fishing license and nearly every angler will they you they are looking for a quality fishing experience. To most anglers, the biggest part of a quality fishing experience is catching a decent amount of fish. Most practice C&R because they want to come back to the stream, river or lake and catch more fish and have another quality fishing experience....they fish for fun!"

very good post if only the pafb leader ship would get it.

 

[wildtrout2]

ebroesicke wrote:
ie. If I go trout fishing and keep my limit, then keep fishing and release another amount equal to that limit, I can say I released 50% of fish.

Yea, and then you can also say you were fishing illegally.

 

[troutbert]

"You can observe a lot just by looking." Yogi Berra

Just go a bridge pool on opening day and LOOK. You'll see a lot of trout being removed.

And then go to a DH or C&R area and LOOK. You'll see that the trout are NOT being removed. So, they are still there.

This isn't rocket science.

 

[govtmule]

well said troutbert

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Best comment ever Dwight

 

[Mike]

An assumption often made is that a lot of people are harvesting the limit, which just is not the case. What may look like a lot of harvest at a bridge hole is not a lot overall.. Troutbert is correct, you can learn a lot by looking and interviewing, and that is what is done on creel surveys. Those creel surveys, however, last for days and weeks, sometimes months; they are not just during opening day.

Reference is made to opening day, which is not representative of the season as a whole. Reference is made to bridge holes on opening day, which are also not representative of the harvest as a whole. When you compare the grand total of trout harvested as parts of five fish limits, those numbers are minor in comparison to the numbers of trout stocked and the numbers of trout harvested as parts of lesser creels. Again, the average number of trout harvested per angler trip on stocked trout waters is one.

As for wild trout, there is no biological reason to lower the 5 fish limit on a statewide basis since the statewide creel survey showed that angler use and harvest was low, plus the follow-up study of the no-kill Brook trout streams showed no differences between the population responses in no-kill streams vs those with 5 fish creel limits and 7 inch length limits. Proponents of statewide reg changes in being such proponents apparently think that there is a statewide harvest problem, otherwise they would not suggest a statewide reduction in the creel limit and expect that it would have a beneficial biological or population impact. Clearly, since the special reg brookie streams were part of the statewide population of streams and they showed no response to the regs, the theory that there is a statewide problem is weak. Lowering the creel limit on wild trout streams may satisfy some individuals' emotional desires, but will have no impact on the fisheries unless one can find fisheries that are presently over harvested.

 

[Maurice]

This is an example of the tangled web the Commish is in. Their data shows a movement toward more C&R fishing yet they push for more harvest. They operate like a bizness and are not interested in the satisfaction of the loyal customer, only getting new ones.

The data showing the move toward C&R and presented as such by the commish over the last decade for whatever reason does not fit the paradigm of the new proposal for DHALO...so Mike comes on here and says maybe I misspoke...the data means this....its not the 50% release we need to be reading its the 50% harvest. Meaning, people want to harvest.

I'd imagine this is in direct response to the comments being presented in the DHALO proposal.

Afish, only new license dollars count here...and they have to make up for that 38,000+ license buyers to cover the nut by lowering the price by a dollar this year.

Hows that working for ya

So they will try to do it by poking the loyal license buyer in the eye...the same ones that provide financial and inkind support to keep waters open and provide improved habitat.

Its really quite sad....

 

[troutbert]

Mike wrote:
Troutbert and others,
The assumption being made here is that a lot of people are harvesting the limit

I did not state, or imply, that a lot of people are harvesting the limit.

 

[Mike]

Troutbert,
I apologize as I misinterpreted your point and I have modified the post accordingly. I don't disagree with your observation that a lot of fish are harvested from bridge holes on opening day, but there are caveats, which I have described in my post relative to the proportion of fish that were stocked. Additionally, many of these fish are later replaced with an inseason stocking.
Mike

 

[afishinado]

Mike,

The vast majority of anglers in PA prefer to catch and release like you stated in your OP.
Why is that? (I’ll answer)…..because they want to come back and catch more fish.

Why allow the minority of anglers take the majority of fish in 99% of the stream miles? Why does it not make sense to hold over more fish to allow anglers a chance to enjoy fishing for a longer time and catch more fish on each outing?

No wonder license sales are down! I teach fishing to 20 +/- kids and adults every Saturday morning throughout the spring and early summer. That’s hundreds every season and well over a thousand in the last few years. I also teach a fishing class on-the-water just about every other Sunday through that period. BTW, nearly all the adults are buying their fishing license for the first time. I often have to give them many of them info on how and where to buy a license.

If you ask just about every one of those kids and even the adults if they prefer to keep and gut and eat the fish they catch, or if they prefer to release them and catch a whole bunch more next time they go out, what do you think their answer is?!…..are you even kidding me?

THEY-WANT-TO-CATCH-FISH!

More fish caught = more happy anglers = more license sales.

How is this message lost on the FBC? Go out and talk to folks that fish and folks that may be interested in starting to fish. Don’t continue to let the special interest lobbies and politicians dictate policy. What else can say?