And here is why I don't buy from the little guy........

[Heritage-Angler]

JackM wrote:
Here's an example of a small shop that has a thriving business because they learned to compete with big box outfits for mail order business: http://littleriveroutfitters.com/store/home.php

A section of their shipping policy on mail order business:

Free Shipping – We don’t think you should be charged for shipping and handling. After all, it costs us less to handle mail order transactions than those here in the store. So we pass that savings on to you as long as you don’t mind ground shipping in the continental United States. We do charge our actual cost above the normal ground shipping for expedited service or shipments made to countries outside the continental United States.


Granted, they are a destination shop, but their mail order business helps them keep volume up so they can get some discounting by buying larger lots of products. This seems like a smart adaptation to the way business is done in the 21st Century.

Sometimes you get what you pay for. Other than hooks and a few tying tools, there are no other tying supplies available on their online catalog. No mention of a free mailed catalog for tying materials either. I guess one could just call them up and order over the phone, hoping the prices they DON'T advertise wouldn't take the order over the point where you'd still be saving that $7.50 on the shipping. I wouldn't hold my breath. How is the quality of their tying supplies? What if you get the order, and the stuff is poor quality? How many times does someone have to get burned by poor quality to realize that sometimes, you get what you pay for?

Little River Outfitters = an unknown
FFP = known quality - vouched for by lots of folks right here.

I'd rather just pay the $7.50.......

 

[littlelehigh]

by DGC on 2009/2/4 18:00:03

A bit confusing, since your title to this thread is "And here is why I don't buy from the little guy........" yet it seems you dont like the "Big Guys" (big boxes) either.

A quick check of various websites showed the following charges on a 75.00 order:

Cabela's $10.95

Hook and Hackle Co. $8.95

TCO $8.95

Murray's Fly Shop, in VA, $9.95

It is a bit odd that you could have mentioned dozens of shops who would have charged you to ship your order, in most cases more than the $7.50 FFP would charge, and yet for some reason FFP is the only shop you highlight for critique.




Actual if you look back I asked last week where do you shop and received many replies and a few members agreed with my choices I said I was considering including:
Leeland
Sporting Lifestyles
and
Linesend.com
But quite a few also recommended FFP so I gave them a consideration by ordering a catalog. Out of my 3 choices including shipping FFP and Leeland turned out to be the most costly including shipping. (If you look at Leeland's website it's obvious they add alittle "extra" to each item to cover shipping. I did not see most of the sites you referenced about in the original thread.

 

[JackM]

Heritage, I wasn't really holding Little River Outfitters up as an alternative to the tying supplies dilimma. In fact, my initial post on this thread expressed the opinion that $7.50 on a $75.00 order wasn't significant enough to make a difference even to a cheapskate like me. I was merely responding to the prior post about other small shops with similar or higher shipping charges by showing how some shops have tried to gain additional market share by offering free shipping. It may well be the case that all buyers, in-store and mail-order, at LRO pay a slightly higher markup on items in order to subsidize this courtesy for the mail order buyers. On the other hand, there are few things that gripe me more than to be charged $9.95 or $7.50 for Shipping and "handling," then have my product arrive with a metered postage sticker showing $3.30. Even allowing a small fee for the cost of the box, I feel I've been asked to pay a premium for shopping by mail. And yes, this occurs with Orvis and Cabelas, too.

 

[RonKolman]

Regarding: "why I don't buy from the little guy" One of the best things that has happened to me during my 35 year fly fishing adventure, has been having a fly fishing shop located in Indiana, Pa. The name of the shop is "The Indiana Angler", owned and operated by Woody Banks. For years he has provided excellent service and fishing advice to countless anglers, besides having a well stocked inventory of fly fishing items, everything a guy (or girl) would need. I have also traveled throughout the state and visited numerous other fly shops and most (not all) of those experiences were positive. I have also been in the large chain stores in our area and have been impressed with the volume of equipment and supplies. But ultimately, when it comes right down to first hand experience and on site advice, nothing compares to the help and expertise at the Indiana Angler. Secondly, after doing quality and price comparisons with the large chain stores I find very little cost difference...especially when I can quickly drive to the shop, tryout what I need, get some quick advice and walk out with what I need!!!!
In the early days of my fly fishing, there were no shops close by and this created a number of problems when trying to purchase tying materials or equipment. Today, I can't imagine how inconvenient my shopping would be without the fly shop in Indiana. I know I would be lost without this valuable resource nearby. I think any angler who has a similar situation with a local flyshop, would be foolish not to patronize the local fellow as much as possible. I think the benefits of doing business with the local shop are endless, and I know many of our local anglers would agree with me!!!!!

 

[JustFish]

I went and bought a 5 weight combo yesterday at Cabelas. I am a firm believer that the more expensive the rod doesn't=more fish caught. I think I ended up spending $150 for rod, reel, backing and line. I was looking at the Sages that would've cost me close to three hundred for a combo and possibly was gonna buy one. The man in the shop said for the price difference there isn't a significant difference in performance between the rods.

I have gone to smaller shops and they want to sell you really expensive rods, not saying they all do but the ones I have gone to have.

The point is they all have their place(big stores and little stores). I think the guy at Cabelas is getting an hourly wage and is less a salesman and more apt to give you honest info. on rods that is. With the combo deals at the bigger stores it's just hard to beat the prices.

 

[JackM]

As one who does not buy expensive equipment, I have to say that I believe there is a difference in some of the more expensive equipment; however, as you say, it isn't in how well they catch fish. I have had rare opportunities to see and cast more expensive rods and they often are more pleasant to the eyes and the touch than the stuff I fish with. Anyone who thinks they can spend their way into being a better fly angler better spend the money on lessons rather than equipment.

 

[tomgamber]

JustFish wrote:
I went and bought a 5 weight combo yesterday at Cabelas. I am a firm believer that the more expensive the rod doesn't=more fish caught. I think I ended up spending $150 for rod, reel, backing and line.

so what did you buy?

 

[JustFish]

tomgamber wrote:

JustFish wrote:
I went and bought a 5 weight combo yesterday at Cabelas. I am a firm believer that the more expensive the rod doesn't=more fish caught. I think I ended up spending $150 for rod, reel, backing and line.

so what did you buy?

I guess that would help! :lol: I got a Cabelas traditional II 4 piece 5 wt. I have a four wt tradional I and liked it. I took it out back this morning and casted it and liked it so far. Gonna try to go to the Tully tomorrow and give it a shot.

 

[tomgamber]

JustFish wrote:
I got a Cabelas traditional II 4 piece 5 wt.

I have that same rod...its a whole bunch faster than the old traditional but that's one of the reason I got it. I like mine a lot.

 

[JustFish]

tomgamber wrote:

JustFish wrote:
I got a Cabelas traditional II 4 piece 5 wt.

I have that same rod...its a whole bunch faster than the old traditional but that's one of the reason I got it. I like mine a lot.

That's awesome! The guy said this model is better than the previous with faster action and I liked the previous a lot! Can't wait to get out and use it. :-D Hopefully tomorrow!

 

[brookieaddict]

I must have deleeted my last post, I was on heavy pain killers for a post knee operation and listening to Iorn Butterfly, ahhhhh the good old days. Here's how i see it; The big box stores serve their purpose in keeping equipment in reach for the common 35k-50k working man. While other tackle mfgs think we all make 100k+ bonus to match. Most of us dont drive to our favorite fishing spot in our brand spanking new 85k Import wearing $800 waders to a stream you cant wade in. I may have over priced the waders a bit but everything else is the truth and we see it all the time. We all cant mis-manage business and then reward failure and incompetence as they do. Its good to save money where you can but when you buy rods and reels the small fly shop cannot be replaced, period. I was looking at an 8 wt. St.Croix Avid and the shop owner said " take it out his weekend and if ya want it we'll talk". Box store dont offer these kind of services and the little guys know it.

 

[afishinado]

Tim Murphy also knew this shop and the owners very well. I started FF when I was in high school at around age 16, but didn’t have a clue for the first few years. I started to really get into FF in college, but of course I didn't have a lot of money to spend. I stopped at local shop to buy some stuff. The shop owner steered me right, sometimes steering me towards things that were less costly for me, less profitable for him, but worked well. He would often take me out and give casting tips and lessons (for free). When I bought fly-tying materials would give me extra scraps of material and feathers to tie with (for free). When I had a questions about a pattern or tying method, he or his wife, who was a great tier, would give me an impromptu fly tying lesson on the shop vise, and give me some sample flies that they tied for me (for free).

After graduating from college, I got a real job and started making some real money. I was about to take my first FF trip out-west and the shop owner lent me (for free) a multi-piece Sage travel rod to take with me that would ride on the plane. When I bought a high-end rod (Sage), reel, or waders that couldn’t be discounted because of the pricing policy of the manufacturer, the owner gave me some free FF merchandise as a discount. Whenever I stopped in the shop to ask about the hatches, and business was slow, the owner would tell his wife to watch the shop, and we went off together to fish one of the streams near the shop to see what’s actually hatchin’.

I bought more rods, reels, lines, waders, vises, materials, and FF do-dads than you can imagine from him. Wouldn’t you?

 

[pcray1231]

Little Lehigh,

If you had ordered at FFP, you'd have found the shipment on your step the next day, with a hand written note thanking you.

I don't think anyone's arguing the little private shops are cheaper, they aren't, and if you're following the numerous sales at the box stores its not even really close. If you're on a tight budget, then go the cheaper route, I don't think anyone will have a problem with that, we all do it on occasion. Some of us will choose the good service route.

When I want hooks, at a box store I gotta search through and find the hook I want hanging on a rack, and I'm on my own to figure things out. At a good shop, I simply say I wanna tie sulphur comparaduns for use on X creek, and they'll give me the right hook, give me hints on how to tie it, sometimes even sit down at the vice and teach me, and they'll tell me when and where it'll work best. If I want a rod, I tell them I'm looking for something in this price range for this purpose, and I get to go outside and cast them, maybe even take one down to the stream for a longer test. They'll even talk you down in price, and that impresses the heck out of me. If my rod breaks in 3 years, I don't have to deal with the manufacturer, I take it back to the shop, they remember the day you bought it, handle all the details, and give you a new rod that day. Some of us are willing to pay more for that kind of service, and have no problem giving $7.50 for shipping on occasion. We're paying for more than the product recieved and are fine with that.

 

[trouthunting]

Afish, you express, perfectly, the reason for shopping at a small shop. PCray's supporting point hits the spot as well.

I think that the point being made at the beginning of this thread is in reference to both of your posts.

If the small shop doesn't provide these extras, then it's not worth the money. Nobody can argue that the small shops' expertise of their area, FFing and tying isn't worth the premium they charge. Just that without those extras, paying the premium is, more or less, paying extra money for the sake of paying extra money.

 

[trouthunting]

I'm sure nobody wants to see this topic pop back at to the upper end of the fly tying board, buuuuuut, I figured why not? With all the talk about the small shops I went ahead and bought a bunch of tying supplies from a small shop in person.

So, my question to those who have more experience than I:

What's with the selective patronage to the clientele? Here's what I'm talking about:

I stepped into the shop (very nice little place, btw) without so much as a glance from the owner. I was looking (admittedly, somewhat perplexed) at the tying materials in the back. I'm new to tying and fly fishing, so I don't know my way around.

Nobody came to help. After about fifteen minutes of staring and picking a few things off the wall I asked who I assume was the shop owner's wife. After mentioning that she didn't really know all that much about the sport she was happy to show me where they kept the different materials. Great, I got what I needed and went to pay.

At the desk, the shop owner wouldn't even look me in the eye. When I attempted to strike up jovial conversation I was met with one word answers before getting my stuff receiving a nod before heading out the door.

Now I realize that I was probably around 20 years younger than anyone in the shop, and I realize that I was the only one wearing business clothes (I shot in right after work)...obviously, I'm expecting a bit of skepticism.

Is this just the sort of thing that happens when you stop in and you're not a regular? Are there fly shops out there that are happy to see new entrants into the sport who also happen to be young guys? Is it the business-wear that I had on (come on, we all gotta work, right)?

I know there are a few shop owners and a lot of shop frequenters on the board, so how about some words of wisdom?

I want to support small shops. If I'm going to get better service at a big box store though, then I can't really justify shopping at the little guys'.



**I won't give the name of the fly shop, or its location. I'm sure they're good guys; there was just some resent aimed at me.

 

[jayL]

I fit your description, and that has only happened to me once or twice in small shops. Normally, they are more than welcoming.

 

[troutbert]

Just got my Orvis catalog today, and checked the shipping rates. A $75 order would have a shipping rate of $9.95.

Both UPS and Fedex keep raising their rates, much more than the rate of inflation. That's why shipping rates have gone up. Some places offer free shipping, just like some places have "sales" of 10% off this or that.

You have to just choose what you think is best. But I'm a very satisfied customer of FFP. The information, the knowledge, is worth paying 10% more. Just ask them one question every time you order something and over the years you'll learn so much. I've forgotten a lot of what I learned from them already, but it was nice to learn it in the first place.

 

[RLeeP]

I always thought patronizing the smaller shops in PA was the thing do do, not only for all the reasons folks have mentioned on this thread, but also because its like sampling one of the worlds greatest collections of individual eccentrics.

My life is far richer for having done so and it was worth the extra 10% or whatever many times over..

 

[ErnieBall]

for someone like me who doesnt like close to a fly shop - it makes sense for me to buy from online small sellers and then when I am in the vicinity of a small fly shop, I will certainly stop and buy from them, that is my take on it -- we all have to do what we have to do in these times, and I think actually people will be fishing more this summer because gas is lower and stress is higher and they just need to get away - fly shops will make their money...