And here is why I don't buy from the little guy........
- Thread starter littlelehigh
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David
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There will be different business paradigms for each situation based on location, volume, core customers, personnel, location, profit margin, overhead, overall customer base, owner, etc., etc. (and location). Each business model (and subsequent execution of business model) has different pros and cons. If they have a sound model, execute it consistently, and change based on the demands of the consumer, they will at least make a living. If they are not able to pay their bills, they will disappear. So shop based on your preferences (customer service, price, product knowledge, convenience, etc.) and the rest shoud take care of itself.
Acristickid
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I like to be able to wear my waders in the stores. Most shops have dogs- don't they?
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This may be simplistic, but it seems if having the small shop around in the future is important to you, you should try to patronize them as much as possible. On the other hand, if having them around isn't that important, you shouldn't feel the need to do so. I am always bewildered that people who find the small shops important seem to want others who don't to help subsidize them. I have had both good and bad experiences with small and large shops and my few dollars a year go to those who have treated me well, whether large or small. I never miss a chance to give Jonas a few dollars at the Jamboree, even though I could get flies much cheaper elsewhere. He takes time out of his schedule to come up and speak to us at the campfire and also will provide helpful advice on current conditions. I hope he stays in business for years to come.
MKern
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I thought of another thing...
If a shop breaks down and gives you free shipping on 10% of your order, how is he supposed to please you the next time you call in an order 10% off and free shipping. Where's the end.
However, if you are talking about purchasing a new rod, reel, line, backing, leader, and you ask about free shipping he should jump at the chance.
At the shop I frequent, I drop usually between $20- $40 every month or so. this keeps me in touch with them. they listen to my suggestion, make special orders for me, dye thing special for me, and when materials aren't in or done when they told me I ALWAYS get them at discount or free. Not to mention when I'm looking for something particular and they can't get it I get something similar free. And because I frequent the shop so often, even though I live 90 minutes away, I often get odds and ends of things that didn't meet weight, or there was extra of free of charge.
Symbiotic.
If a shop breaks down and gives you free shipping on 10% of your order, how is he supposed to please you the next time you call in an order 10% off and free shipping. Where's the end.
However, if you are talking about purchasing a new rod, reel, line, backing, leader, and you ask about free shipping he should jump at the chance.
At the shop I frequent, I drop usually between $20- $40 every month or so. this keeps me in touch with them. they listen to my suggestion, make special orders for me, dye thing special for me, and when materials aren't in or done when they told me I ALWAYS get them at discount or free. Not to mention when I'm looking for something particular and they can't get it I get something similar free. And because I frequent the shop so often, even though I live 90 minutes away, I often get odds and ends of things that didn't meet weight, or there was extra of free of charge.
Symbiotic.
DGC
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I would echo what David says in post # 22. That they stuck to their standard shipping rates for an order seems reasonable to me given the specific factors that each shop has to consider.
As regards FFP specifically, however, I consider it part and parcel of a tradition in central PA flyfishing and if it were to go away, I would regret it.
I don't know those guys personally, but I do recognize all the experience and work that goes in to such things as specialized dyeing of materials, development of local patterns, and the unmatched quantity of free instructional material on the website.
That can also be said of other shops but this thread just happens to single out FFP.
As regards FFP specifically, however, I consider it part and parcel of a tradition in central PA flyfishing and if it were to go away, I would regret it.
I don't know those guys personally, but I do recognize all the experience and work that goes in to such things as specialized dyeing of materials, development of local patterns, and the unmatched quantity of free instructional material on the website.
That can also be said of other shops but this thread just happens to single out FFP.
ErnieBall
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I think a good option for your dilemma would be too: Find the "Little guy" store that doesnt charge shipping and price compare that way. I think you will find that upon looking around, you can probably get what you are looking for at a cheaper price than you have already found and with just a slight cost in shipping.
Heritage-Angler
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Here is why I buy from Flyfisher's Paradise.......
1. Friendship: Those guys are my friends of many years. I can't even imagine going in there on a "strafing run" to just grab something and go. A quick stop always turns into at least an hour. Catching up on things with these guys is truly a pleasure I look forward to every time I set foot in the store.
2. Selection: Even Cabela's can't compare to the huge variety of tying supplies that FFP has. I'm not talking about stuff to tie saltwater patterns - I'm talking about things for fishing here in PA. For this, FFP has no equal of any one place you can walk into here in this state, IMO. Need a certain color thread in a particular size? FFP almost always has the color I need, and usually in several brands. Try that at Cabela's. :-(
3. Quality: How many times have we all "sifted through" peg hooks of merchandise looking for a decent quality item? I rarely have to do this at FFP. They pre-screen all the items they put out, and the lesser quality items I often find on the hooks of other fly shops just don't seem to make it to the shelves at FFP. They have bargain bins in the back of the store for the stuff that isn't up to par for the front part of the store.
4. Unique items: For example leaders. The FFP hand tied leaders are a work of art! Where else can you find a George Harvey hand tied leader? I don't know who ties those leaders, but the blood knots are always flawless.
5. Advice and Service: I've brought friends into the shop and if they are out of a particular "hot fly", many times I've seen them break out a vise and tie up whatever was needed, teaching the pattern as they tie.
There are a lot of tying supplies that I prefer to see in person, rather than just ordering off the internet. I can call Steve, tell him what I'm looking for, and he selects exactly what I need. FFP is the ONLY place I trust enough to do this over the phone.
FFP also gives the best advice as far as fishing conditions. They know it is a 2 1/2 hour drive up for me, and if the fishing conditions aren't worth the drive, they'll tell me to stay home. Lots of shops give good advice - I really appreciate an honest opinion, even if it costs them a sale.
Some folks don't think twice about jumping in their car and driving to a fly shop to pick up some items. If you figure in the cost of gas, the $7.50 for shipping starts to look pretty reasonable.
This is just my opinion on my favorite fly shop. Lots of other folks probably feel the same about their favorite shop. YMMV.....
1. Friendship: Those guys are my friends of many years. I can't even imagine going in there on a "strafing run" to just grab something and go. A quick stop always turns into at least an hour. Catching up on things with these guys is truly a pleasure I look forward to every time I set foot in the store.
2. Selection: Even Cabela's can't compare to the huge variety of tying supplies that FFP has. I'm not talking about stuff to tie saltwater patterns - I'm talking about things for fishing here in PA. For this, FFP has no equal of any one place you can walk into here in this state, IMO. Need a certain color thread in a particular size? FFP almost always has the color I need, and usually in several brands. Try that at Cabela's. :-(
3. Quality: How many times have we all "sifted through" peg hooks of merchandise looking for a decent quality item? I rarely have to do this at FFP. They pre-screen all the items they put out, and the lesser quality items I often find on the hooks of other fly shops just don't seem to make it to the shelves at FFP. They have bargain bins in the back of the store for the stuff that isn't up to par for the front part of the store.
4. Unique items: For example leaders. The FFP hand tied leaders are a work of art! Where else can you find a George Harvey hand tied leader? I don't know who ties those leaders, but the blood knots are always flawless.
5. Advice and Service: I've brought friends into the shop and if they are out of a particular "hot fly", many times I've seen them break out a vise and tie up whatever was needed, teaching the pattern as they tie.
There are a lot of tying supplies that I prefer to see in person, rather than just ordering off the internet. I can call Steve, tell him what I'm looking for, and he selects exactly what I need. FFP is the ONLY place I trust enough to do this over the phone.
FFP also gives the best advice as far as fishing conditions. They know it is a 2 1/2 hour drive up for me, and if the fishing conditions aren't worth the drive, they'll tell me to stay home. Lots of shops give good advice - I really appreciate an honest opinion, even if it costs them a sale.
Some folks don't think twice about jumping in their car and driving to a fly shop to pick up some items. If you figure in the cost of gas, the $7.50 for shipping starts to look pretty reasonable.
This is just my opinion on my favorite fly shop. Lots of other folks probably feel the same about their favorite shop. YMMV.....
sandfly
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The big stores can get away with out charging for shipping because they get their stuff cheaper(%) than we the little guy does because they buy in large bulk..(5,000 items of the same compared to 60) what do you people think we make per item, most of my stuff is under 20% under retail, I have to make up the shipping somewhere. big stores are a full 90%. Go ahead and buy from the big guy and when your out on the stream and need something that day and there are no local shps left, just remember you bought it for a $7.50 saving and helped put us out of buisness...
Just my Rant, I'm going through the same thing here...
Just my Rant, I'm going through the same thing here...
mikeyB
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Now, let me see if I've got this right. You can call up a small flyshop with a list of items that you would like. An employee who is a professional fly tier , maybe even the shop owner, does your shopping for you, picks out all of your items, packages them and ships them out and, provided that you called in your order by 3:00pm, you receive those items on your doorstep the very next day. And this for the outrageous sum of $7.50!!! (did I use enough exclamation points?) And because this service wasn't performed for free, you will never use them again. Makes perfect sense.
Sandfly,
I don't know where your shop is located. However, in early June I head up along Pine Creek and fish Slate/Cedar on my way over to Potter Co. to fish with friends who have a camp there. I would love to make a stop into your shop as part of the trip. I don't know how close you are to those parts. My fishing experiences have been greatly enhanced by the relationships that I have been fortunate enough to develop over the years. Especially those relationships born out of doing business with small local flyshops. I don't know how you guys are able to stay in business, but I certainly hope that you always do.
Cheers, Mike
Sandfly,
I don't know where your shop is located. However, in early June I head up along Pine Creek and fish Slate/Cedar on my way over to Potter Co. to fish with friends who have a camp there. I would love to make a stop into your shop as part of the trip. I don't know how close you are to those parts. My fishing experiences have been greatly enhanced by the relationships that I have been fortunate enough to develop over the years. Especially those relationships born out of doing business with small local flyshops. I don't know how you guys are able to stay in business, but I certainly hope that you always do.
Cheers, Mike
trouthunting
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There is definitely consideration in the premium that a customer pays for the little guy; most of the time it's worth it. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
However, if you shop online at a big box store and get everything together that you want, then go to the little guy and ask for everything at the same price over the phone, what is the point of a premium?
If consultation is included (usually is) then the premium is definitely worth it. No question. However, for an a la carte order, is the premium really worth it?
The micro economic equilibrium will keep itself in check. The more valuable a little guy's premium is, the more able that shop will be to stick around.
Expecting someone who is ordering a la carte to pay more at a small shop is...well...asinine. That's just paying for the sake of buying from a small shop without utilizing any of the benefit.
Again, I speak from experience of small business outside the FF shop world. I swear I'm not talking out of my a$$.
So in response to littlelehigh's original post, I wouldn't pay a premium from somewhere that didn't offer me the service for it either. If I'm going to be treated like an outsider, then I'm just getting ripped off; I'm literally paying to be treated poorly.
Compete. That doesn't always mean in price...if your small shop's expertise and service are great, then nobody will mind paying a premium.
My entrepreneur "mentor" always told me...be great at what you do and you will prosper. It works.
However, if you shop online at a big box store and get everything together that you want, then go to the little guy and ask for everything at the same price over the phone, what is the point of a premium?
If consultation is included (usually is) then the premium is definitely worth it. No question. However, for an a la carte order, is the premium really worth it?
The micro economic equilibrium will keep itself in check. The more valuable a little guy's premium is, the more able that shop will be to stick around.
Expecting someone who is ordering a la carte to pay more at a small shop is...well...asinine. That's just paying for the sake of buying from a small shop without utilizing any of the benefit.
Again, I speak from experience of small business outside the FF shop world. I swear I'm not talking out of my a$$.
So in response to littlelehigh's original post, I wouldn't pay a premium from somewhere that didn't offer me the service for it either. If I'm going to be treated like an outsider, then I'm just getting ripped off; I'm literally paying to be treated poorly.
Compete. That doesn't always mean in price...if your small shop's expertise and service are great, then nobody will mind paying a premium.
My entrepreneur "mentor" always told me...be great at what you do and you will prosper. It works.
trouthunting
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LOL! "Walmart doused by mom 'n pop grocers"
Wouldn't the hippies just LOVE that?
littlelehigh
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trouthunting hit the nail on the head in post #34 and as he suggested I went else where.
I guess what shocked me was everyone raves about there helpfulness and freindly service and that is really more of what I was expecting. I asked about there shipping cost and I told them the amount I was willing to spend and stated it was for all small items and I got a straight $7.50. Not well what are you planning on tying up where do you live nothing to suggest they were interested in my business what so ever. Yes shipping is cheaper than the gas it would cost me to stop by, that's not the point.
I work with customers everyday and the reason they contact me is they are looking for help whether it's a physical item, suggestion, alternative/ equal item etc. I respect this and do what I can to help them out and gain there loyalty. In other words I NEED THEM, they can get help elsewhere. BUT I want them to think of ME when they need help. Just because I do not have face to face discussions does not make them less important. Which is how I felt when I called them. Now I do admit I based my sole opinion off of everyone here who has had excellent face to face contact with them.
Leave the big box retailers out of this I know when I enter any of there stores I am a number not a named face. I prefer to have and continue to gain personal relationships with people, business etc..
I don't know much but I do know small business is based on niche marketing product knowledge, and customer service. I only started this thread to vent frustration and as constructive critism not to offend anyone sorry.
I guess what shocked me was everyone raves about there helpfulness and freindly service and that is really more of what I was expecting. I asked about there shipping cost and I told them the amount I was willing to spend and stated it was for all small items and I got a straight $7.50. Not well what are you planning on tying up where do you live nothing to suggest they were interested in my business what so ever. Yes shipping is cheaper than the gas it would cost me to stop by, that's not the point.
I work with customers everyday and the reason they contact me is they are looking for help whether it's a physical item, suggestion, alternative/ equal item etc. I respect this and do what I can to help them out and gain there loyalty. In other words I NEED THEM, they can get help elsewhere. BUT I want them to think of ME when they need help. Just because I do not have face to face discussions does not make them less important. Which is how I felt when I called them. Now I do admit I based my sole opinion off of everyone here who has had excellent face to face contact with them.
Leave the big box retailers out of this I know when I enter any of there stores I am a number not a named face. I prefer to have and continue to gain personal relationships with people, business etc..
I don't know much but I do know small business is based on niche marketing product knowledge, and customer service. I only started this thread to vent frustration and as constructive critism not to offend anyone sorry.
DGC
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A bit confusing, since your title to this thread is "And here is why I don't buy from the little guy........" yet it seems you dont like the "Big Guys" (big boxes) either.
A quick check of various websites showed the following charges on a 75.00 order:
Cabela's $10.95
Hook and Hackle Co. $8.95
TCO $8.95
Murray's Fly Shop, in VA, $9.95
It is a bit odd that you could have mentioned dozens of shops who would have charged you to ship your order, in most cases more than the $7.50 FFP would charge, and yet for some reason FFP is the only shop you highlight for critique.
A quick check of various websites showed the following charges on a 75.00 order:
Cabela's $10.95
Hook and Hackle Co. $8.95
TCO $8.95
Murray's Fly Shop, in VA, $9.95
It is a bit odd that you could have mentioned dozens of shops who would have charged you to ship your order, in most cases more than the $7.50 FFP would charge, and yet for some reason FFP is the only shop you highlight for critique.
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Here's an example of a small shop that has a thriving business because they learned to compete with big box outfits for mail order business: http://littleriveroutfitters.com/store/home.php
A section of their shipping policy on mail order business:
Free Shipping – We don’t think you should be charged for shipping and handling. After all, it costs us less to handle mail order transactions than those here in the store. So we pass that savings on to you as long as you don’t mind ground shipping in the continental United States. We do charge our actual cost above the normal ground shipping for expedited service or shipments made to countries outside the continental United States.
Granted, they are a destination shop, but their mail order business helps them keep volume up so they can get some discounting by buying larger lots of products. This seems like a smart adaptation to the way business is done in the 21st Century.
A section of their shipping policy on mail order business:
Free Shipping – We don’t think you should be charged for shipping and handling. After all, it costs us less to handle mail order transactions than those here in the store. So we pass that savings on to you as long as you don’t mind ground shipping in the continental United States. We do charge our actual cost above the normal ground shipping for expedited service or shipments made to countries outside the continental United States.
Granted, they are a destination shop, but their mail order business helps them keep volume up so they can get some discounting by buying larger lots of products. This seems like a smart adaptation to the way business is done in the 21st Century.
