Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

[troutbert]

PAgeologist wrote:
The Map 61 Atlas used to be poor quality scans of the individual quads with bedrock geology imposed over top. I am not sure if it has changed or not, since I havent used it in a while.

They are still scans, and are pretty hard to read.

 

[k-bob]

thanks for the map responses. fishing in NEPA, I sometimes do want to consider AMD and acid precipitation. the conductivity gauge is great for AMD. Since I usually just visit one area at a time, and plan a bit before I go, I can print the dcnr geology stuff. It's a great map, but I just dont count on cell service to see that map while out fishing. thanks again

 

[k-bob]

just remembered that dwight posted this link on water impacts of acid rain/deposition and AMD... notice the info on conductivity w/ the two pH lowering issues:

http://www.cotf.edu/ete/modules/waterq/acidtable.html

a simple toothbrush sized gauge will let you read conductivity in a flash. amd impacts are very local, one stream may have it, a nearby one may not. hike far up an amd stream, and you get above it.

 

[k-bob]

as PAgeologist notes some nice county-based reports are out there. some give bedrock-based well water pH data. this data is an indication of the buffering capacity of say huntley or burgoon bedrock in an area. this report is for a favorite county of mine, Sullivan:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2013/5085/support/sir2013-5085.pdf

the bedrock-based well water pH data is table 2, page 9. if two sullivan cnty streams otherwise seemed equally interesting, I'd rather try a stream starting in huntley than burgoon bedrock...

 

[FarmerDave]

bigDAKattack wrote:
hi, bigDAKattack here. I hunt along E Millstone, and want to fish it also. Ran across some kids doing water samples for classes at Penn State yrs ago. They said nothing should be living in there. Didn't quite understand what they meant? I have seen some acid drainage seeps entering the creek about 1 1/2 miles up from Loleta swimming area. Is the ph that bad? What can we do as sportsmen to help bring the creek back? Please email me.

If memory serves me, it's pretty bad up there. What can be done to bring it back? Back to what? I'm not sure if it ever was a whole lot better. The geology sucks.

But improvements can always be made. Point sources (such as old gas wells) are easier to fix, and it is possible the Government has money set aside for abatement. Don't know, since that is Federal land. If the seeps are natural, it becomes significantly more difficult and expensive to eliminate, but treatment is still not impossible.

I just don't know the stream well enough to say more than that.

It all takes money and theoretically the amount of money available is limited. So decisions where to spend it need to be well thought out.

 

[troutbert]

For what it's worth:

Millstone Creek, and the East and West Branches, are all on the PFBC's stocking list.

If you want to do something about the streams in the region, join Iron Furnace Trout Unlimited. They work in that region.

And/or join the watershed group that works in that area, if there is one.

 

[FarmerDave]

Good advice Dwight, and I was going to mention that at least some of that is stocked.

 

[troutbert]

http://www.pa-roots.com/forest/history/chapter13.html

In this old history of that region, it mentions that were some coal mine operations near Marienville.

The info is in the first large paragraph.

I think in many parts of PA there were probably very small mining operations that were never really documented, and that aren't very obvious in the landscape now.

Some of these might be harming water quality, but no one has figured it out yet.

 

[PAgeologist]

Dwight - that happens alot, especially in areas where mining isnt widespread. I am involved with several projects where mining isnt obvious, but the impacts are present. Most likely they were circa very early 1900's or late 1800's. Its likely that there are no records of many of the mines. I know that some of them have very well established vegetation on them planted in the 30's(?) as part of the CCC camps(?).

 

[k-bob]

yeah, can be tough to guess where trout will be in a mined area...

I might have guessed that both the Y-shaped trib to Oley Creek in center of image and the trib below the highway shown in red (and thus on nat repro) would have no trout. (Luzerne, SW of white haven, highway is I80).

 

[FarmerDave]

Very cool read, Dwight. I love reading old history like that. Thanks for posting it.

The mining mentioned was all very small and very shallow operations with many of them simple outcroppings. Wife's step dad had a small coal mine on their farm when he was a kid. That was during the depression and they used it for heat and traded coal for other things. I suspect those were common as well.

Although disturbing the coal formations even on small scale would very likely contribute to the pollution in Millstone watershed short term, the text also gives indication that a fair amount of the problem is indeed natural, and these streams likely never did have large populations of trout when compared to other areas of the state.

Numerous outcroppings of high surfer content coal and no record of limestone.

Also note the later reference to bog ore in same read. Nasty stuff. What we called "bog ore" back in the day was usually associated with an old abandoned gas well, but this also can occur natural.

Also reference to old gas drilling but separate from the bog ore mention.

I'd be more concerned about old abandoned gas wells than small (mostly surface) coal mining operations from over 140 years ago.

 

[troutbert]

PAgeologist wrote:
Dwight - that happens alot, especially in areas where mining isnt widespread. I am involved with several projects where mining isnt obvious, but the impacts are present. Most likely they were circa very early 1900's or late 1800's. Its likely that there are no records of many of the mines. I know that some of them have very well established vegetation on them planted in the 30's(?) as part of the CCC camps(?).

How were these less obvious sites noticed and located?

 

[k-bob]

some map info on mines may be here:

http://epcamr.org/home/content/gis-coverages-and-gps-unit-assistance/

 

[PAgeologist]

Dwight - I think many were found through a combination of historical informaion (newpapers, photos, etc...) and folks tracing impacts to streams. I would bet that there are many that havent been discovered like in Dave's post above.

Old gas wells can be a source of acidic drainage as well. As the well casing fails, water will make its way up to the surface, typically bringing all the pollutants with it. One of my projects treats discharges from old gas wells.

One of the other issues up in the Millstone area (and most of NW PA) is that the coal seams in that area tend to produce some of the worst mine drainage we have in the state. Typically the Mercer, Clarion and Brookville seams make very poor quality water as compared to the other major coal seams.

 

[duckfoot]

Don't forget old dump pits. I'm still finding old tires, batteries, cars, scrap metal, and cans in massive piles that look like where the farm put all their junk, sometimes nearly 100 years ago.

 

[Chaz]

Oley Creek is an interesting place, there are times when I think the trout aren't even there. It may be impacted by AMD.