A New Brookie find?

[JeffP]

I was walking near Middle Creek on Mountain Spring Road. I've walked this road and along the little trickle that comes of the mountain. I have never seen a fish in it. We crossed a bridge on Sunnyside road and someone designed a large pipe hole on the other side of the road. I saw about 4 small fish dart under the stone wall. Could it be? Maybe! They sure darted like trout. This stream feeds Middle down below the turnpike bridge. Someone else mentioned this as a possibility and I though no way. You never know!

 

[Fish Sticks]

Is there a barrier?

 

[JeffP]

You mean down to Middle Creek? Not to my knowledge. I have never fished it. It goes down to farmland and through woods before hitting Middle. The pipe hole itself has a dam that makes it bigger. It would be a challenge to get over it I think. I am also not sure how long ago the added dam was there. I am doubtful there are any wild browns in that section of Middle. But again, you never know.

 

[Fish Sticks]

You mean down to Middle Creek? Not to my knowledge. I have never fished it. It goes down to farmland and through woods before hitting Middle. The pipe hole itself has a dam that makes it bigger. It would be a challenge to get over it I think. I am also not sure how long ago the added dam was there. I am doubtful there are any wild browns in that section of Middle. But again, you never know.

If there is a barrier and the habitat/thermal situation is not as favorable as it is in segloch where brookies have all but vanished that probably tells us something

 

[JeffP]

This is stream is a trickle in this area. I am kind of doubting there are thermal issue but I think it all but dries up in the summer. Along Mountain spring Road, it runs through some manmade concrete runs. I am guessing it must start near Elders Run but comes down the other side of the mountain. There is also a large dump on the property where we used to search for old beer cans back when that was a thing. By brother, who used to be the Township Superviser, said the pipe whole construction should have definitely required a permit.

 

[Fish Sticks]

You may want to shoot Meredith bartron and your AFM a drop pin and tip because they have been surveying the furnace hills for brook trout fin clips to genotype those brookies. I doubt they surveyed what you found and streams in that area suffered from too few individuals surveyed to accurately genotype. Think you need minimum of mid 30’s fish to get useful population genotyping data. You might push them over the threshold there if your tip winds up in even a small amount of clips taken for genotyping. Others had raised question of gene banking segloch brookies before the drainage looses them all in the setting of brown fish.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Mountain Spring Rd?
Dace

 

[Swattie87]

It wouldn’t surprise me if there was Brookies in that. I’ve driven along it too and wondered.

There’s definitely still Brookies in that drainage. Elders (obviously), but also Furnace. That’s still mostly Brookies, from my recent outings there. I’ve only caught a couple Browns in Furnace, to dozens of Brookies. Agree Segloch has been trending toward more and more Browns.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Pa fish and boat has that survey data from that area despite sending it to FWS as far as what was captured. All you guys who know there streams over there so well could probably help out by calling the AFM and asking what areas they couldn’t get the minimum number of fish to genotype(again think bare bones minimum is like 33 individuals or in the ball park.) Dr. Bartron from FWS told me last time we spoke that if I knew additional areas in the furnace hills streams with brookie concentrations that might not have been sampled let the AFM know. A lot of you guys that comb that area could probably point them in the direction of a significant amount of fin clips. They prob know about alot of what you do but i dunno some of these surveys could have come up 5-10-15 fish short to genotype even givjg them specifics pool wise in a stream they know has fish could help genotype those brookies.

 

[JeffP]

Pa fish and boat has that survey data from that area despite sending it to FWS as far as what was captured. All you guys who know there streams over there so well could probably help out by calling the AFM and asking what areas they couldn’t get the minimum number of fish to genotype(again think bare bones minimum is like 33 individuals or in the ball park.) Dr. Bartron from FWS told me last time we spoke that if I knew additional areas in the furnace hills streams with brookie concentrations that might not have been sampled let the AFM know. A lot of you guys that comb that area could probably point them in the direction of a significant amount of fin clips. They prob know about alot of what you do but i dunno some of these surveys could have come up 5-10-15 fish short to genotype even givjg them specifics pool wise in a stream they know has fish could help genotype those brookies.

33 fish needed from a stream? Or from a stretch? I would love to see what data they have.

 

[JeffP]

It wouldn’t surprise me if there was Brookies in that. I’ve driven along it too and wondered.

There’s definitely still Brookies in that drainage. Elders (obviously), but also Furnace. That’s still mostly Brookies, from my recent outings there. I’ve only caught a couple Browns in Furnace, to dozens of Brookies. Agree Segloch has been trending toward more and more Browns.

I have to fish Furnace one of these days. Fished it briefly once and had a couple slashes. Pretty cool through the steep stretch. Anything up stream in the eroded stretch on the west side of 501. I think my brother caught one at spring lake but we never fished upstream.

 

[Fish Sticks]

i forget the exact number i think its in the 30’s and 33 comes to mind but that is bare minimum for the information ascertained to be able to be used. 60-90 would be nicer but basically what conservation geneticists can do is look at these repeated genetic sequences at known common locations called Microsatellite loci and reverse calculate the size of a population, look at barriers to movement based on neighboring populations, look at how historical and contemporary processes are shaping brook trout genetics, get rough idea of adaptive potential vs inbreeeding/ genetic drift, identify candidates for generic rescue/arrifical gene flow/ translocation, and as the important individual genes for adaptive potential are identified (life the research with ben kline and maria meek at michigan state are doing with thermal tolerance genes ), candidates with higher Conservation potential can be identified tonhelp us focus resources better.

So to answer you question the minimum number of fin clips is per population not per stream section or stream. So it depends on how much area the population occupies is my understanding. I don’t know how much genetic variation defines a population specifically id have to ask someone.

 

[Swattie87]

I have to fish Furnace one of these days. Fished it briefly once and had a couple slashes. Pretty cool through the steep stretch. Anything up stream in the eroded stretch on the west side of 501. I think my brother caught one at spring lake but we never fished upstream.

I’ve just fished the SGL stretch. I think that’s probably the best habitat area on the stream. Mostly Brookies. Found a couple pool boss Browns in the bigger pools.

 

[JeffP]

Mountain Spring Rd?
Dace

Too big for dace I think. These fish darted for cover which made me think trout. I could be wrong.

 

[JeffP]

i forget the exact number i think its in the 30’s and 33 comes to mind but that is bare minimum for the information ascertained to be able to be used. 60-90 would be nicer but basically what conservation geneticists can do is look at these repeated genetic sequences at known common locations called Microsatellite loci and reverse calculate the size of a population, look at barriers to movement based on neighboring populations, look at how historical and contemporary processes are shaping brook trout genetics, get rough idea of adaptive potential vs inbreeeding/ genetic drift, identify candidates for generic rescue/arrifical gene flow/ translocation, and as the important individual genes for adaptive potential are identified (life the research with ben kline and maria meek at michigan state are doing with thermal tolerance genes ), candidates with higher Conservation potential can be identified tonhelp us focus resources better.

So to answer you question the minimum number of fin clips is per population not per stream section or stream. So it depends on how much area the population occupies is my understanding. I don’t know how much genetic variation defines a population specifically id have to ask someone.

So are you saying the Forest Hills is one population?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I explored that many moons ago, it was all dace and chubs. It's been 30 years, so it could have changed but back then, no trout. IMO as small as it is and the lack of habitat, it is unlikely trout stay or breed in it. Perhaps seasonally for refuge but that doesn't line up with this time of year.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So are you saying the Forest Hills is one population?

No there are known barriers that seperate some of the furnace hills brookies(example speedwell). Their are different populations but i am not sure how many

 

[Mike]

I have to fish Furnace one of these days. Fished it briefly once and had a couple slashes. Pretty cool through the steep stretch. Anything up stream in the eroded stretch on the west side of 501. I think my brother caught one at spring lake but we never fished upstream.

Here’s my recollection, which could be a little off since the trout numbers were quite limited. The survey was a bit of a disappointment. Survey yrs ago revealed creek chubs and probably escaped pond fish. No trout were found in the upstream area west of 501. Stream improved for trout in a downstream direction but not for long as it then lost forest cover and gradient, and a decline in the already limited trout numbers followed.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Here’s my recollection, which could be a little off since the trout numbers were quite limited. The survey was a bit of a disappointment. Survey yrs ago revealed creek chubs and probably escaped pond fish. No trout were found in the upstream area west of 501. Stream improved for trout in a downstream direction but not for long as it then lost forest cover and gradient, and a decline in the already limited trout numbers followed.

There have unfortunately been a lot of recent tree loss in furnace hills. Was a big timber sale on walnut creek headwaters. And I am not a fan of the whole “no trees in the flood plain” approach of legacy sediment removal at DEP. Its pretty short sighted and thats all DEP’s wet land restoration division wants to pay for right now.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

One of the many touted benefits of legacy sediment removal and full floodplain restoration us increased groundwater connectivity and recharge. This is supposed to result in improved thermal conditions more resistant to large fluctuations depending on air temperatures. I have yet to see any substantial water temperature data from these projects to provide evidence one way or the other. Some of these projects do see significant regrowth of trees in short order, obviously these would be quick growing species like willow, dogwood and sycamore, but there is often an impressive assortment of vegetation type that grows quite dense. Like any other restoration approach, all projects are not created equal.