****y Knight nymph

[Dave_W]

Talyn wrote:
I'll be back there for 2 weeks in mid-May and am willing to travel from SE Butler Co a reasonable distance to rendezvous if possible.

Taly,
Welcome to our online community and welcome back to PA (at least in an online sense. )

Although living in MT you've got a new crop of fishing buddies back east again. Glad you were able to find that particular fly. The online archive of PA Angler-Boater is a great historical resource.

When you're back in May, if it fits your schedule, we are having our annual get together called "the jam" on the weekend of the 20th. This will be in center state, probably 2-3 hours from Butler. Check the Events forum to follow our discussion. You're welcome to join us. We do some fly tying (nothing formal, just some dudes at a picnic table) and can give you some tips.

 

[Talyn]

Thanks Dave!

I'll see if I can pull that off since I'll probably head back (I'm driving back this time) west on the 24th or 25th.

My Mom is 86 and spending time with her is important due to her age and slowly failing health. Don't know how much more time we'll have with her. I'll be taking her on a couple drives to see our old hunting/fishing camp in Elk County and to Kennerdell PA were we used to have a summer camp. It will probably be the last time I see those places since I'm out west for good now.

I haven't been in the State College area since I was 16 at a 2-week Penn State conservation camp back in 1974. There was a big cicada hatch going on at the time so that's also vivid PA memory for me.

The weather should be stable by May for the cross-country trip and the humidity back there shouldn't be too bad yet.

I greatly appreciate the gentlemen here who are helping to resurrect the ****y Knight. Perhaps PAFlyfish could archive this pattern with the PA Angler article and some new recipe descriptions and color pics. And if one of these gentlemen writes a fly tying book perhaps the ****y Knight could be put in it, so either way it's not lost to posterity.

I did get a return call from the gentleman at Murray's Stream Master Fly in Cabot. I mentioned the 1967 PA Angler article and this thread here. Hopefully he'll visit this info also.

Hopefully all these discussions will put the ****y Knight back into alot of PA fly boxes and useage again.

All this is bringing back fond memories. I hope that sometime soon I can catch a Montana cutthroat, and the other four commonly available trout species we have here, with a ****y Knight.

Regards,

Alan

BTW By driving back I can bring back some Yeungling Black & Tan and Porter back to MT

 

[nomad_archer]

Talyn I am still adjusting to the time difference. Anyways I tied up two more this evening. Still #8 2xl hook. I could seeing going down to a #10 maybe a #12.

I am having fun trying to get something that looks like this pattern together. Even on a full monitor the scanned pictures are almost impossible to figure out what is going on. How far we have come with free video tutorials out there.

This has given me a reason to try some techniques I usually do not use such as dubbing loops and palmering hackle. Also selecting the correct size hackle. Usually with soft hackles I find a nice looking feather and it is good enough. I am going to need to find a new dubbing twister what I have is awful..

Any how here are the results and I am pretty happy with them. I shortened up the tails significantly from the other ones.

The bottom one I left the rabbit fur really picked out instead of tight to the thread. I really like the buggy look of that version. The nice thing about this is all of these "experiments" should catch fish.

 

[dc410]

Trevor,

The article posted by the OP states that the hackle is a large reddish-brown hackle, trimmed. I believe that the hackle feather has been clipped on both sides. This will give you a totally different look which can kind of be seen in the photo of the finished fly in the article. It would also do away with any hackle sizing issues. I've been wanting to play around with this just haven't had time yet. I may get a chance later this week.

 

[nfrechet]

"trimmed hackle" could also mean this

 

[nomad_archer]

Good catch John. I read that it was trimmed but wasn't quite sure what that ment. When you mentioned it the light bulb finally turned on. Using a trimmed hackle will certainly change the look and make hackle sizing easier.

The other material list I found out there for this fly calls for ginger rabbit fur for the body and a brown hackle. I guess this pattern in a light and dark color would be a good combination.

 

[pugdom]

I was taught to tie it with more options to the tyer. Wood duck tail, mixed dubbing (tans and browns for me) and whatever hackle you wanted trimed fairly short. Think it looks like cased caddis when dead drifted and an escaping nymph when swung or held up in the water column. My friend has done well on them too for both wild and stockies. Size 12, 2-3xl hooks

 

[Talyn]

Hi guys,

Thanks to Nomad for the new examples in post #23, and I like them as a variation. As Pugdom said I think the tyer as options regarding the pattern. I'm just going on what I can remember from the examples my dad gave me, and we all know variety can be the spice of life/fly fishing.

The hackle trimming is a good point. I think one could have the CK with short, med & longer hackles to see how things go on the creek. The hackles on Dad's were more apparent in the mid-body vs. in the back and front of them which were trimmed close to the body but still apparent. I do think the two new examples with the longer hackles would be good to try out in addition to the closer trimming in the original recipe.

Body-wise it definitely was a "fuzzy-type" nymph that wasn't dominated by the hackle.

I think the length of tail can be variable also. I like the length in Pic #16, as well as the shorter ones in #23. Having a couple lengths in the fly box would be a good options.

I'm glad Nomad is having fun with the CK, and am looking forward to others that give it a try.

I'm glad Pugman has said he's tyed the CK and contributed his insight to this project. He's right-on with how it likely appears in the water when dead-drifted, and when the lift is done as the end of the drift. I think I got most of my hits on the lift, but I was above the pools that I fished the CK into based on what the West Frk. of the Clarion was like when I was a kid.

Very excited about all this and your collective involvement in this project.

 

[Talyn]

I hope anyone that's discovering/re-discovering the ****y Knight has good success with it like our ancestors did in the past, and Pugman and his friend's experiences.

I'm hoping when I get some to try out here they will do well also.

Regards

 

[nomad_archer]

Alright I am digging this now. Tied these up on #12 3x slightly humped hook. I trimmed the hackle which is easier said than done. But I really liked the result. Hackle trimming will only get better with more practice. I agree with John, the trimmed hackle makes a huge difference in the fly. The long fibers in the middle are actually guard hairs from the rabbit skin.

I want to try this again tomorrow using coq de leon tailing material for the tail instead of the mallard dyed wood duck.

 

[Talyn]

Experimentation is always fun.

Post #16 was heading closer towards the original CK out of all the examples.

Trimming the thinner hackle on it closest to the head tight to the body to leave a discernible ring a moderate trimming of next two hackle rings, and finishing the last two hackles with a close trim but discernible rings to the hook bend is what I remember. The grey body on the original CK was very obvious.

 

[acesedgley]

the instructions in the article mention trimming the hackle before tying it in. Is that how y'all have been doing it, or have you been trying to trim after you have palmered it and tied it off?

 

[McSneek]

I got a kick out of the "Governor goes Fishing" article. Talk about opening day crowds!!

That fly looks quite easy to tie. Mallard flank fibers for the tail. A shaggy body (rather than the process of painting nail polish on thread and "glueing" the dubbing to it I would use a loop). It looks like a trimmed hackle paltered through the body. It's basically a variation of a woolly worm, a walt's worm or even sort of a precursor to a wooly bugger. Sounds like getting the color to match what the OP recalls may be the toughest task.

 

[dc410]

I finally got some time to play around with this pattern this evening. Here is my ****y Knight Variant pattern. In post #7 the OP ask about tying this pattern to be fished hook point up. Here is my version. I tried to keep most of the original pattern in place but I tied it on a 3X heavy size 8 wet fly hook with black bead chain eyes to make it ride hook point up. The tail is imitation wood duck. The body is 2 parts muskrat to 1 part brown mink, the reddish-brown hackle trimmed prior to being tied in. I tied it on a 3X heavy hook so that if I have the opportunity to stick a 30+" - 15 lb. carp with it I can handle it and the won't straighten out the hook. This fly will definitely be in my carp box and will be fished this year. I will be laying this fly right down in the silt in front of a mudding/feeding carp and I have no doubt that if I don't spook the fish it will eat this fly. Thanks for the inspiration to tie the pattern.

 

[nomad_archer]

Nice tie John. Is there a trick to trimming the hackle? I tend to make a mess of the hackle. Cut to much here then not enough there. I I really like the buggy look the trimmed hackle.gives the fly. I also prefer the slimmer body.

 

[Talyn]

Thanks for all the additional participation and new "upright" example.

When I was a kid back there the first days of deer and trout season were big deals with large crowds on the streams in Elk County. Has that changed any/much?

In my last assignment in northern MN they had a Govenors Opening Day (deer season) event in town (from across the state) that would host it each year. It was a big deal and I was able to participate in it once up at a town on the Iron Range. The MN Govenor always showed up for a big catered lunch for "pasties".

BTW, at our summer camp in Kennerdell on the Alleghany I used to watch mudding/feeding carp on the shallows going about 1/2 out in the river before it got deep. Also used to watch fisherman in their boats tie into big carp and fight them for a looong time before bringing them in. Also, once saw a giant muskie slowly cruising in some side sloughs and watched minnows jump out of the water when it got close.

Keep the CK examples coming. Thx!

 

[nomad_archer]

What did you use for imitation wood duck?

 

[dc410]

nomad_archer wrote:
Is there a trick to trimming the hackle?

Trevor,

No real trick to trimming the hackle I used a fairly large reddish-brown furnace hackle feather. Stroked the fibers back so that they are as close to 90 degrees to the stem as possible and trimmed each side to the desired length. I don't get real particular about some being a bit longer than others. Some final trimming can be done after it is wrapped. I was really trying to maintain some of the brown tips as well as the darker center portion of the feather getting heavier in the thorax area. I guess you could also use the clear plastic clip from the magic tool that I showed you at the Tying Jam. Clip it onto the feather and use the edge of the tool as a guide for a straighter cut.

The imitation woodduck is just that, "Imitation Woodduck, aka Mallard flank died yellow", probably purchased in the early 80's at the Anglershop in Lancaster, PA. It was a fishing tackle shop that had a decent amount of fly tying supplies for the era. I bought my first vise and tools at this shop when I first started tying. I used imitation woodduck for the wings on my light cahill dry flies. At that time the only light colored mayflies I knew of was the Light Cahill and I tied and fished a lot of them. Found the old bag of feathers buried in the bottom of one of my bins.

Here's a tying tip when palmering hackle. Tie your hackle tip in far enough in front of your tail to wrap the first round of body material (dubbing, chenille or whatever) behind the hackle feather but just in front of the tail. The second wrap should be in front of the feather and then finish the body. The palmered hackle will start nice and straight and not interfere with the position of your tail and you won't end up with hackle fibers sticking back in the direction of the tail.

 

[nomad_archer]

John - thanks for the additional info. It appears I have the correct stuff. I didnt know if there was another "imitation" out there.

Here is one of my favorites. Twist dubbed 3parts fox squirrel 2 parts SLF Natural hare dubbing. Intentionally built up a large chartreuse head to look like an peeping caddis

 

[LongLineRelease]

I read these posts and gave my Dad a call. He has been fishing partners with Al Gretz for years and would occasionally talk about fishing the ****y Knight. He emphasized the fly was to be finished off with a large black head and had a trimmed brown hackle palmered over the body. The proper color for the body should actually be a light tan, as it came from the light bottom side of the lynx tail. Apparently Al had a collection of the tails from somewhere and gave them away to friends. Dad indicated that he thought natural possum or perhaps regular old hare's ear would work as a fine substitute for the body dubbing. He also thought it would be a good idea to use a modern black bead in place of the traditional large black head. Size should be large, with size 12 4xl recommended.

In my opinion, this fly probably does a good job of matching the ubiquitous crane fly larva.

Finally he relayed to me an entertaining story about Al catching a very large trout in Penn's Creek with the ****y Knight. Apparently he drew a crowd while trying to land the fish. When Al released the fish he drew the fury of a watching bait fisherman who threatened to beat him up for "wasting" such a huge fish by letting it go.