Wilderness Stream Designation

[troutbert]

I second this as far as the counties that supposedly don’t have nat repro for browns. They are nearly ubiquitous

Nearly ubiquitous in some regions. Not in others. Not in that region.

 

[troutbert]

ArcGIS Web Application

pfbc.maps.arcgis.com

If you click on Natural Reproduction on this list, you can see wild trout stream mileage mapped. It's pretty interesting to see the "trout desert" areas, as well as areas with lots of wild trout water, and to think about what makes the differences.

 

[HopBack]

Nearly ubiquitous in some regions. Not in others. Not in that region.

I don’t know about filthadelphia county. It has streams that may produce browns in its headwaters or tribs but they are not located within the county. Scarce would probably know if there are any.

 

[Swattie87]

I don’t know about filthadelphia county. It has streams that may produce browns in its headwaters or tribs but they are not located within the county. Scarce would probably know if there are any.

My official position, if every trickle was shocked and surveyed, it’s more likely there are, than aren’t. Given similar areas where Browns have shown the capability of popping up.

 

[sarce]

I don’t know about filthadelphia county. It has streams that may produce browns in its headwaters or tribs but they are not located within the county. Scarce would probably know if there are any.

None as far as I know but I think you could theoretically find a stray in the Skuke, mixed in with the snakeheads, flatheads, stripers, and shad. But it would be a needle in a haystack.

There are some browns that are awfully close to the city line in other Schuylkill tribs. But I don't know of anywhere actually in the city that would have them.

 

[Fish Sticks]

My official position, if every trickle was shocked and surveyed, it’s more likely there are, than aren’t. Given similar areas where Browns have shown the capability of popping up.

Mine as well, not talking about fishable pops but common telling me a brown has never passed boathouse row?

 

[Fish Sticks]

None as far as I know but I think you could theoretically find a stray in the Skuke, mixed in with the snakeheads, flatheads, stripers, and shad. But it would be a needle in a haystack.

There are some browns that are awfully close to the city line in other Schuylkill tribs. But I don't know of anywhere actually in the city that would have them.

Some urban underground sewer systems have really cold water and trout have popped up in them i belive. Forget where I saw this will search

 

[sarce]

Some urban underground sewer systems have really cold water and trout have popped up in them i belive. Forget where I saw this will search

Oh yes, how could I forget the Concrete Wilderness Trout Streams! The reg booklet says "Must have confined space entry certs to fish these waters".

 

[Mike]

I second this as far as the counties that supposedly don’t have nat repro for browns. They are nearly ubiquitous

If we didn’t look hard enough around or in Philly, how do you think we found the populations in Montgomery Co just over the Philly border? Yes, an occasional verified wild BT would ascend the Fairmount Fishway, so technically there was an occasional wild trout in Philly.

 

[riverwhy]

Can anyone explain the wild trout deserts in parts of Bedford, Fulton, Franklin, and Huntington counties? I have never fished any of these counties.

 

[Acristickid]

I could drive to 3-4 of these wilderness streams in 5 minutes and to a few others in 20 minutes. I have fished them all- several a few times.

Takeaway- Several of these streams don’t have that big of a population of fish- you know based on anecdotal analysis of fishing them. I realize this is a small sample.

I don’t have all the streams at my fingertips but I assure you Bedford and Huntington are definitely not trout deserts. Frequently drive an hour or two to those counties to fish.

 

[jifigz]

Can anyone explain the wild trout deserts in parts of Bedford, Fulton, Franklin, and Huntington counties? I have never fished any of these counties.

Yes, it is pretty easy to explain from a geological standpoint. Limestone and/or dolomite underlays parts of those counties and in other parts it doesn't. Other than some shaded mountain freestone streams, without the underlaying limestone the streams that arise in the valleys and flow aren't fed with enough spring water to stay cold. Search for the limestone/dolomite PA map on Google. It clearly shows this correlation to our best trout areas.

 

[riverwhy]

Yes, it is pretty easy to explain from a geological standpoint. Limestone and/or dolomite underlays parts of those counties and in other parts it doesn't. Other than some shaded mountain freestone streams, without the underlaying limestone the streams that arise in the valleys and flow aren't fed with enough spring water to stay cold. Search for the limestone/dolomite PA map on Google. It clearly shows this correlation to our best trout areas.

It looks like numerous ridges run through these areas. But very few if any blue lines especially southern areas of Bedford and Fulton.

 

[jifigz]

Is this the map you looked at? The dark blue correlates with our spring creeks for sure. Note this doesn't affect our mountain freestone streams. Other factors, such as shade and elevation, help keep them cool. Notice Lancaster county's abundance of limestone. This is why it is excellent agriculture land but the trout streams have been ruined by agriculture, development, and sedimentation.

 

[silverfox]

Can anyone explain the wild trout deserts in parts of Bedford, Fulton, Franklin, and Huntington counties? I have never fished any of these counties.

Geology. For example, in the southern end of Bedford Co., the south slopes of Martin Hill are predominantly quartzite and sandstone. Acidification has been a major issue here as the soils (and streambeds) lack any buffering capacity. This results in large fluctuations in pH and dissolved aluminum and other toxic metals to be present in solution. No macros, no fish.

Ironically, we also have a fair few seams of karst geology. Sometimes mixed in with the inert geology. One I've explored thoroughly goes subterranean and reemerges right on that limestone belt where the stream intersects it perpendicularly. Above the seam is fairly barren to a point, and then below its cold water and trout until it warms again and only supports WW/CW fish.

Here's an example. Note the pH at site 1. Wildcat Run would be an incredible brook trout stream if it weren't for its chemistry. Beautiful and dead. Same with all of the streams coming off the south slope (Pigeonroost, little Pigeonroost, Bear Gap, and Little Bear Gap). I think I recall Swattie and crew poking around down here and finding the same thing.

 

[Mike]

Fixed it

To complete the aforementioned sentence modification in #17 add “since they are so common.”

It is a bit of a shame that the ever expanding list of wild trout streams documented in Pa does not indicate which species were present for each stream on the list.

 

[silverfox]

To complete the aforementioned sentence add “since they are so common.”

It is a bit of a shame that the ever expanding list of wild trout streams documented in Pa does not indicate which species were present for each stream on the list.

Amen!!!!!!!!! I would LOVE to see that information.

 

[Bamboozle]

To complete the aforementioned sentence add “since they are so common.”

It is a bit of a shame that the ever expanding list of wild trout streams documented in Pa does not indicate which species were present for each stream on the list.

Probably because the spreadsheet is full of other information.

If there isn't something in place, maybe the PFBC should adopt an "official" code for the species like ST, RT, BT or 1, 2, 3.

They SHOULD be able to squeeze that in the list. I know I could if it was my spreadsheet...

Either that or lose the tributary column which is NOT on the Class A or Wilderness Lists.

 

[jifigz]

Probably because the spreadsheet is full of other information.

View attachment 1641229284

If there isn't something in place, maybe the PFBC should adopt an "official" code for the species like ST, RT, BT or 1, 2, 3.

They SHOULD be able to squeeze that in the list. I know I could if it was my spreadsheet...

Either that or lose the tributary column which is NOT on the Class A or Wilderness Lists.

No, do not lose the trib to. I find that a very useful piece of info.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

To complete the aforementioned sentence modification in #17 add “since they are so common.”

It is a bit of a shame that the ever expanding list of wild trout streams documented in Pa does not indicate which species were present for each stream on the list.

To add an addition to the modification of the aforementioned sentence modification

"since they are so common but should be set aside, because they are dwindling and will become uncommon."

The list might be expanding but populations are not. Rather brook trout are in decline, just because it got surveyed and documented doesn't mean it produced a new population.