Wilderness Stream Designation

[sam]

I'm having a bit of a hard time finding information about this. Are "wilderness trout streams" as designated by the PFBC also class A streams? Or are they just remote streams where there may be natural reproduction? I'm trying to understand the difference between the different designations (Class A, Natural Reproduction, etc.).

 

[wildtrout2]

Wilderness trout streams are streams that offer a wilderness setting/experience, not necessarily a high density of trout and not Class A.
Natural reproduction is just that, a naturally reproducing population, but not of Class A status/population.
Class A streams are "usually" the best streams, population wise.

 

[turkey]

I'm having a bit of a hard time finding information about this. Are "wilderness trout streams" as designated by the PFBC also class A streams? Or are they just remote streams where there may be natural reproduction? I'm trying to understand the difference between the different designations (Class A, Natural Reproduction, etc.).

Their site has changed a bit but I think all of the definitions are here,

Trout Water Classifications

www.fishandboat.com

 

[pcray1231]

Wilderness and the class system are totally separate.

Wilderness = non stocked, has wild fish, runs away from roads and such, publicly accessible, but not necessarily class A. Not related to the class system. They are streams that the PFBC wants to highlight that offer a quality wild trout fishing experience in a wilderness setting for those of us who like that kind of thing. Some are class A, some are not, but all of them are probably decent.

Class system - purely biomass of wild trout based. Says nothing about whether it's publicly accessible, what kind of environs it's in, or how enjoyable it is to fish overall. There is class A, B, C, D rating. The PFBC only publishes the class A list, and the streams with natural reproduction list. The latter includes all stream sections which are class A, B, C, and D. So if it's on the streams with natural reproduction list, but not on the class A list, then you know it's B, C, or D.

 

[pcray1231]

Regarding the class A thing, from wikipedia, lol:

The criteria for Class A Wild Trout Waters vary by species. For brook trout, a biomass of 30 kilograms per hectare (27 lb/acre), including at least 0.1 kilograms per hectare (0.089 lb/acre) of brook trout less than 15 centimeters (5.9 in) long. Additionally, brook trout may not make up less than 75 percent of the total wild trout biomass. The requirements are the same for brown trout except that the minimum brown trout biomass is 40 kilograms per hectare (36 lb/acre).

For a stream to be Class A Wild Trout Waters for both brook trout and brown trout, the combined biomass of both species must be at least 40 kilograms per hectare (36 lb/acre) and the biomass of each species must include at least 0.1 kilograms per hectare (0.089 lb/acre) of trout less than 15 centimeters (5.9 in) long. Neither species may make up more than 75 percent of the total wild trout biomass.

The criteria for rainbow trout are considerably simpler: the only requirement is that the biomass of wild rainbow trout less than 15 centimeters (5.9 in) long must be at least 2 kilograms per hectare (1.8 lb/acre).

 

[jifigz]

The wilderness trout stream designation was always one of the stupidest in my opinion. It was a small list with streams that had many counterparts statewide that could also provide the same, if not better, wilderness trout setting.

There are SO MANY streams in PA that offer a wilderness feel and escape and you can have many to yourself. Just start looking.

 

[pcray1231]

Agree and disagree.

IMO anything the PFBC does to call attention that streams like this exist is a good thing. Just from an angler education standpoint. Too many people don't realize wild trout opportunities even exist. Someone perusing the site looking for stocking schedules comes across that, and says hmm, have to try that sometime. That's GOOD!

Maybe they try it, enjoy it, say wow. Wonder how many more there are like this? Then they find out there are plenty more. I'm by no means saying it's an exhaustive list. You're absolutely right, there are so many. But the more "wild trout wild trout wild trout" the website has, and the less "stocked stocked stocked" it has, the better.

 

[Swattie87]

I’m not 100% certain the Wilderness List necessarily means it’s publicly accessible. Yes, most are and are on publicly owned land, but at least some are on private land. (They may still be accessible as in not posted, or, can be accessed with permission, but you still need to check/confirm you’re on public land, watch for posting signs, and ask permission as appropriate.)

Case in point…One that’s always intrigued me on the maps, and is on the Wilderness List, but I’ve never fished because I’ve questioned the legality of accessing it…The Outlet, Sullivan County. I don’t see where it’s on public land. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that, as I’d love to fish it.

 

[Mike]

Jifigz, the Wilderness Trout Stream “program” preceded “management by classification,” so in the days that many or most were so designated, it was the only program that recognized wild trout in Pa. Furthermore, the designation results in the highest Chapter 93 water quality protections via PaDEP. Wilderness Trout Streams receive the Exceptional Value Coldwater Fishes designation. Even Class A’s don’t receive that designation because of their fish or fisheries. They only become EV if the macroinvertebrates qualify them as such.

I would add that brook trout streams do not receive any special recognition or designation in Chapter 93 unless they are Class A or Wilderness Trout Streams. There was one which could have been designated as a Wilderness Trout Stream in SE Pa, but the property was already seeing abuse from campers, etc, so such a designation would have been counter-productive. Additionally, it was already Class A and EVCWF.

 

[Bamboozle]

I'm having a bit of a hard time finding information about this. Are "wilderness trout streams" as designated by the PFBC also class A streams? Or are they just remote streams where there may be natural reproduction? I'm trying to understand the difference between the different designations (Class A, Natural Reproduction, etc.).

Here's the Wilderness Trout Streams List.

If accurate, many haven't been surveyed in quite some time. Regardless there is a smattering of Class A, B & C streams.

However, keep in mind the "streams" on the Wilderness Trout Streams List are SECTIONS of the named streams and most often the headwaters which one would assume afford the most seclusion.

But it also can mean the biomass may be different in adjacent sections (better or worse) AND adjacent sections may even include sections on the Stocked Trout Waters list that would be closed to fishing presently.

Stuff to think about...

Good luck!!

 

[jifigz]

I would add that brook trout streams do not receive any special recognition or designation in Chapter 93 unless they are Class A or Wilderness Trout Streams.

Oh boy, this comment might have just opened up a can of worms for PFBC bashing on this thread.

All that needs to be done to educate on trout and wild trout is inform the public that in PA trout are EVERYWHERE. Until I became a fly fisherman I looked down on trout. Trout stocking didn't do it for me and I didn't realize how abundant wild trout are. I thought "who wants to fish for an artificial fish from a bucket with so many others around." Yes, I trout fished but I was mainly WW guy. I was a hardcore angler then, too. I've been an avid angler after everything and anything since I was like 8 years old. I was an avid bass fisherman, baitcaster, hardcore soft plastic drop shottin' fool. I educated myself on wild trout. I learned, I traveled, I fished, and now trout are probably my favorite fish to pursue (the fact I live in a trout paradise helps.)

The PFBC just needs to say hey folks, trout are EVERYWHERE. Big fish, little fish, big streams, little streams, yada yada yada, they are there. Fish for them and respect the resource. I think the educational campaign could be very successful.

 

[troutbert]

All that needs to be done to educate on trout and wild trout is inform the public that in PA trout are EVERYWHERE.

Wild trout are abundant in some parts of PA.

But there are large areas of PA where wild trout are few and far between.
.

 

[Fish Sticks]

If the wilderness designation protects from stocking good because class A doesn’t seem to matter if UNESCO finds a rodeo world heritage site or an 1886 news paper at the local library microfiche viewer section has evidence that a child was taken fishing for stockers at one point or if NY museum of natural history unearths a 1970’s Donald duck fishing rod believed to be used in a rodeo stocking must continue at all costs for the good of the realm.

 

[jifigz]

Wild trout are abundant in some parts of PA.

But there are large areas of PA where wild trout are few and far between.
.

Yes, certain places have a concentration of the good trout fishing. That is only logical and natural. Not all of Montana is a pristine trout paradise, either. It is based on many factors with geology being a big one.

I best most counties in PA have wild trout or have wild trout relatively close by. They all aren't Centre County, but some waterbody nearby has some trout reproduction most likely.

Actually, after a quick Google it says 49 out of PA's 67 counties have at least one class A. I don't know if that is fully accurate but it wouldn't surprise me. So, hey public, the best and coolest trout don't come from a bucket/truck/concrete raceway.

 

[Bamboozle]

...Actually, after a quick Google it says 49 out of PA's 67 counties have at least one class A. I don't know if that is fully accurate but it wouldn't surprise me. So, hey public, the best and coolest trout don't come from a bucket/truck/concrete raceway.

It is actually 58 of 76 counties with the only exceptions being:

Allegheny​

Armstrong​

Beaver​

Butler​

Delaware​

Fulton​

Northumberland​

Philadelphia​

Washington​

Only three counties are not represented on the Natural Trout Reproduction List:

Greene​

Washington​

Philadelphia​

FWIW - Philadelphia County IS on the list but that's because the location of the mouth of the stream is the criteria for the county where it is listed.

The Schuylkill River has natural reproduction WAY above Philadelphia County so Philadelphia County IS on the list for that reason.

 

[Swattie87]

I bet, if someone looked hard enough they’d find wild Trout (probably Browns) in Washington, Greene, and Philadelphia (proper) too.

No one has any info on The Outlet? C’mon guys. Is it that good of a honey hole? 😜

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I would add that brook trout streams in Pennsylvania do not receive any special recognition or designation for being brook trout streams.

Fixed it

 

[troutbert]

No one has any info on The Outlet? C’mon guys. Is it that good of a honey hole? 😜

I think it's very likely that that is posted land. But if you get permission to fish there, I'd be happy to tag along.

 

[Swattie87]

I think it's very likely that that is posted land. But if you get permission to fish there, I'd be happy to tag along.

That’s what my research and intuition suggests too, and why I haven’t tried fishing it. Was hoping maybe it’s owned by some watershed authority or conservancy that grants fishing/hunting access. But I don’t think so. Even if the land along the stream was open to fishing, it’s hard to get to, and you may have to cross property owned and posted by someone else to get to it.

I found some videos of guys whitewater kayaking it in extremely high flows, and photos of a waterfall that’s in there, but, that doesn’t mean it’s open to the public for fishing.

If it interests you too Dwight, there’s got to be something to it I’d think. 😉

 

[Fish Sticks]

I bet, if someone looked hard enough they’d find wild Trout (probably Browns) in Washington, Greene, and Philadelphia (proper) too.

No one has any info on The Outlet? C’mon guys. Is it that good of a honey hole? 😜

I second this as far as the counties that supposedly don’t have nat repro for browns. They are nearly ubiquitous