Wild Trout Trifecta

[wildtrout2]

I'd imagine it's a fairly small number of fly fisherman who have gotten the true "wild trout trifecta", consisting of catching a wild brown, wild rainbow, and native brookie on the same stream on the same day. I've been blessed to have done it a few times, but always on the same stream.

I have read that there are only a handful (5 or so) streams in the entire state that have all three wild/native trout in it's waters. Any ideas as to how accurate this is?

 

[FarmerDave]

There aren't a lot of them, but I'd bet the number is more than 5. But the people who write about these things don't seem to realize that there are wild trout outside of central PA.

 

[wcosner2]

I managed it on a Delaware River tributary. Although it has been the only wild rainbow I have caught in the stream, it was 15 inches and more than 100 vertical feet from the river so I have no doubt that there are others. I am sure most of the streams where this can be accomplished are in central PA but it only takes one lucky fish to make it happen.

 

[Swattie87]

I’m sure there are more than five.

I’ve technically done it on four, though three are in the same immediate watershed, and I really kinda only count those as one. Jeff - I’m sure you know where, and it’s likely the same place you’ve done it.

The fourth is lesser known, but is a small freestone stream in NC PA that has a bit of a unique situation on it on private land that resulted in a naturally reproducing Rainbow population, along with the normal Browns and Brookies. The private land that created this scenario is adjacent to a lengthy SF tract, so anyone can go fish the stream in that section.

Besides the four mentioned above, there’s a cluster of Rainbows documented in the Laurel Highlands, and two streams in the Bowmans Creek (Wyoming County) drainage - though the Bowmans tribs are both on private and posted land. I’ve never fished any of these, but they’re in areas where both Browns and Brookies are present, so if you can get access, it’s likely possible in those.

There’s also one in Skuke County where I know of guys who have done it. I’ve fished there, but never personally caught the Rainbow.

Interesting mention on the Delaware River trib. I wouldn’t have immediately thought of there, but that’s the second time in a week or so I’ve come across somebody mentioning that. Makes sense if you think about it. Those streams kinda bug me with all the NY/NJ day hikers they attract. Maybe that area will be a Winter time exploration for me.

And then there’s always Big Spring.

Clearly, in PA, the key to this objective is finding the wild Rainbows and going from there. I’m sure there are more places where it’s possible than I know of. My best guess would be more like on the order of 20 or 30 streams.

 

[Bamboozle]

I've done it more than a few times on three different streams, three different geographies (LV, Pocono region, Potter County),. All were Class A sections that were stocked at one time in their history or that are/were stocked in adjacent sections which explains things.

Although I question the "wildness" of at least two of the trifecta, I also pulled it off in the same day at the same short run/hole/pool where I would spend hours fishing at the Letort.

This was in the FFO well above Letort Park between the "Small S" and the "Big S" so it was a good way upstream and long after the "rodeo" that year.

Although I have never believed it was in fact a true wild trifecta, it was pretty dang cool thing to happen at the Letort at the same spot and day on a stream where I never caught anything but brown trout.

 

[Schaefer406]

I'd imagine it's a fairly small number of fly fisherman who have gotten the true "wild trout trifecta", consisting of catching a wild brown, wild rainbow, and native brookie on the same stream on the same day. I've been blessed to have done it a few times, but always on the same stream.

I have read that there are only a handful (5 or so) streams in the entire state that have all three wild/native trout in it's waters. Any ideas as to how accurate this is?

I have completed this trifecta on a particular stream in Maryland, but not in PA. It was a very rare occasion as the wild rainbow trout only make up an estimate 2-3% of the wild trout population in this stream.

 

[FarmerDave]

I think I read somewhere that natural reproduction of rainbow trout in PA has been on the rise. So, the odds are improving ... depending on your perspective.

 

[Swattie87]

I think I read somewhere that natural reproduction of rainbow trout in PA has been on the rise. So, the odds are improving ... depending on your perspective.

Same. Though probably not a good thing. Rainbows are equally, if not more effective, than Browns at displacing Brookies in Southern Appalachia.

There’s definitely been a shift from the PFBC in the last several years to stocking Rainbows (instead of Browns and Brookies) in small freestone streams that have native Brook Trout in them. Even though the PFBC Rainbows are genetically altered morons, nature is going to find a way, and more wild Bow populations are gonna start turning up in these streams. They just shouldn’t be stocked period. (Another thread I know.)

Anyway, my personal answer to this is that I always carry a gallon Ziploc in my pack now. Any stocked Rainbow caught in these small freestoners, is now dinner, up to the legal limit of five.

 

[silverfox]

Rainbows would be the main ingredient for this trifecta challenge, for whatever it's worth and self sustaining populations of rainbows have been relatively rare in PA (thank god). The other two species already have tremendous overlap, so no real challenge there.

I saw in a report several years ago where there were fairly consistent long-term fish surveys done that one year a batch of stream-born rainbows popped up in a tributary to a HEAVILY stocked stream. So it could certainly happen in more than 5 places across the state depending on weather conditions for the year and whether the rainbows were successful at spawning.

I've read studies that indicate rainbow trout may displace brown trout. That will be interesting to witness unfold if that's how things go here eventually. Curious to see how the wild brown trout fanatics respond to wild rainbows wiping out their favorite fish. Oh the irony. Sorry for the digression.

 

[FarmerDave]

Same. Though probably not a good thing. Rainbows are equally, if not more effective, than Browns at displacing Brookies in Southern Appalachia.

There’s definitely been a shift from the PFBC in the last several years to stocking Rainbows (instead of Browns and Brookies) in small freestone streams that have native Brook Trout in them. Even though the PFBC Rainbows are genetically altered morons, nature is going to find a way, and more wild Bow populations are gonna start turning up in these streams. They just shouldn’t be stocked period. (Another thread I know.)

Anyway, my personal answer to this is that I always carry a gallon Ziploc in my pack now. Any stocked Rainbow caught in these small freestoners, is now dinner, up to the legal limit of five.

We are on the same page, and is why I added "depending on your perspective."

Overall not a good thing.

Also, in my opinion, rainbows are the best tasting of the stocked trout. ;-)

 

[Swattie87]

Also, in my opinion, rainbows are the best tasting of the stocked trout. ;-)

I wish I could say I can tell a significant difference between them, but I can’t. The longer they’re in the stream eating a “normal” diet, the better they all taste though. Fresh Spring stockers are junk, but about this time of the year the ones that have managed to survive start to taste pretty normal with firmer, more wild fish like flesh.

 

[Thunderpole]

Iv done it twice on the same stream. Iv only fished the stream 4 times. 2 times being totally skunked

 

[sarce]

I have not managed to pull it off on the same stream in the same day.

One time, I got a surprise small wild rainbow on a brook/brown stream, and also a bunch of brookies, but the browns eluded me that day.

Another time, a large native brook trout surprised me in a stream with browns and rainbows, but I couldn't find the rainbows that day to complete the trifecta.

Close but no cigar.

 

[Prospector]

I’ve done it 4 times on 2 different streams (twice each). I’ve fished all 4 streams that Swattie mentioned but came up short on 2 of them.

I think there are 11 Class A rainbow streams on PFBC site (I’m making the assumption that wild brown and brook would be anywhere Rainbows would). Add to that streams like the 2 streams I haven’t got the trifecta on plus Falling Spings, Big Spring, Spruce Creek,…etc. that do or may have some wild rainbows. Swattie’s mention of 20-30 streams seems reasonable.

I don’t know if wild rainbows will be on the rise unless they adapt. The biggest hurdle to have Wild Rainbows is the temp range the fish needs to be at and the eggs need to be at. Mike spelled that out several years ago in a thread. I’ve saved it for my personal reference over the years. Streams have to be able to maintain temps in a 14 degree window. Here it is….


Mike March 21 2014
Primary limits on reproduction: Water temps that are too warm (higher than 56 deg F) or too cold (42 deg F or lower) limit or prevent reproductive success, despite the fact that RT adults survive quite well at higher temps. These temps that affect reproductive success fall well within the range of typical Pa freestone temps, but not limestoner temps near their source. Eggs will not develop normally in the fish if constant water temps of 56 deg F or higher are encountered. Temps not exceeding 54 deg F are preferable for a period of at least 6 months prior to spawning. How many streams in Pa do not exceed 54 deg F during the summer? Likewise, excessive losses of eggs occur during incubation in the redds if temps fall below 42 deg F. Think about Pa winters, which explains why fall spawning of Pa rainbows is not a good strategy.

 

[FarmerDave]

I don’t know if wild rainbows will be on the rise unless they adapt. The biggest hurdle to have Wild Rainbows is the temp range the fish needs to be at and the eggs need to be at. Mike spelled that out several years ago in a thread. I’ve saved it for my personal reference over the years. Streams have to be able to maintain temps in a 14 degree window. Here it is….


Mike March 21 2014
Primary limits on reproduction: Water temps that are too warm (higher than 56 deg F) or too cold (42 deg F or lower) limit or prevent reproductive success, despite the fact that RT adults survive quite well at higher temps. These temps that affect reproductive success fall well within the range of typical Pa freestone temps, but not limestoner temps near their source. Eggs will not develop normally in the fish if constant water temps of 56 deg F or higher are encountered. Temps not exceeding 54 deg F are preferable for a period of at least 6 months prior to spawning. How many streams in Pa do not exceed 54 deg F during the summer? Likewise, excessive losses of eggs occur during incubation in the redds if temps fall below 42 deg F. Think about Pa winters, which explains why fall spawning of Pa rainbows is not a good strategy.

Mike is a biologist, he knows his stuff. HOWEVER, the quote you provided was confusing to me. But when I broke it into two paragraphs, it made sense.

Western native Rainbow trout are Spring spawners. Starting at or before the turn of the last century, rainbow trout were introduced into PA. It wasn't until later that a fall spawning variety of rainbow trout were selectively bred in hatcheries.

Lets start with the first half of what Mike said.

Mike March 21 2014
"Primary limits on reproduction: Water temps that are too warm (higher than 56 deg F) or too cold (42 deg F or lower) limit or prevent reproductive success, despite the fact that RT adults survive quite well at higher temps. These temps that affect reproductive success fall well within the range of typical Pa freestone temps, but not limestoner temps near their source. Eggs will not develop normally in the fish if constant water temps of 56 deg F or higher are encountered."

Here he is talking about Spring spawners. I'd speculate that most if not all of the reproducing rainbow trout in PA are Spring spawners. Are all of them descendants of the early introduction? Don't know. I think that is the case for the three stream watershed previously mentioned (Most of us know where that is).

Then Mike goes on to say the following:

"Temps not exceeding 54 deg F are preferable for a period of at least 6 months prior to spawning. How many streams in Pa do not exceed 54 deg F during the summer? Likewise, excessive losses of eggs occur during incubation in the redds if temps fall below 42 deg F. Think about Pa winters, which explains why fall spawning of Pa rainbows is not a good strategy."

Here, Mike is talking about Fall spawning rainbows. Currently, all of the rainbow trout stocked in PA are fall spawners, and we know from what Mike said, that fall spawning trout cannot reproduce successfully in PA.

So, if wild rainbow trout populations are increasing as I have read somewhere, how is this happening?

1. Trout migrate. Take the three stream watershed mentioned earlier. What are the odds that there are no wild rainbows in other tributaries of the main creek? I'd say pretty good. What are the odds that wild rainbows can be found in other tributaries of the river? I'd say also pretty good. I've heard rumors. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that water quality in PA has improved over the past 50+ years, so more opportunity for trout migration.

2. Is there a guarantee that none of the rainbow trout currently stocked will try to spawn in the Spring? I'd speculate that genetics for Spring spawning could still be present, couldn't it? Is the fish commission just controlling water temperatures to trick those fish into spawning in the Fall? I don't know.

Conclusion. I have no reason to disbelieve that wild rainbow trout populations are on the rise. But I really don't know.

 

[Mike]

Good catch Dave. It was a poor choice of words on my part. What I really should have said was that freestone temps in Pa typically fall outside of the range (in summer and/or in winter) of acceptable temps that allow reproductive success. That is not true for limestoners near their spring sources.

I was speaking about fall spawning RT, as that’s what are stocked in Pa and that’s what I had seen in the particular Pa limestoners that I had surveyed. I never inquired as to whether the two freestone RT streams “near” Tionesta supported fall or spring spawning populations.

I never heard about or witnessed an increase in the occurrence of wild RT in generalized stream surveys around Pa. I’ll inquire elsewhere, but I never saw it in SE Pa where RT and BT were the mainstay of the stocking program for many years given that there was very limited stocking of ST in the region.

With the exceptions of Cumberland Valley limestoners, Codorus Ck for a few years, a very short, isolated portion of a Berks limestoner, and maybe the Little Lehigh, I never saw more than one to three RT YOY in a 300 m (as a general site length) electrofishing site. Certainly that was true in the freestoners and moderate alkalinity streams that I worked and I would bet that in over 40 yrs of surveys in such waters I saw YOY RT in those very low densities per 300 m in only a dozen or less streams (I really think it was less than 10 streams).

Additionally, there was one Schuylkill Co stream where on one occasion GRT reproduced very successfully near its headwaters, but none remained two or three yrs later when the stream was next checked. That stream also had some consistent RT reproduction over the years, but densities had always been very low just as I have mentioned for other non-limestoners above and with the termination of stocking there I wonder whether the limited RT reproductive success has ceased. Wild fish collected there and in other freestoners in SE Pa and anywhere else I did stocked and wild trout stream surveys in Pa ( NE, SC, NC, and NW Pa) were never adult fish. And as an aside I never figured out why the Codorus (York Co) RT stopped reproducing after only a few years.

 

[FarmerDave]

Mike, thanks for responding.

Just to be clear... When I suggested the rainbows in the "two" NWPA streams were Spring spawners, it was really just a guess based in part on what you had posted. I don't fish during the fall spawn, and typically don't fish wild streams under general regulation until after the freezer fillers go home. If you find any information on this, please let me know.

 

[pcray1231]

I did a trifecta on Penns during the jam, although the rainbow was not wild. Have done that a thousand times, at least 4 times this spring alone.

I have done the wild trifecta many other times if fishing multiple streams per day.

But regarding a strictly WILD trifecta, and all 3 on the very same stream, I've still done it a lot of times, but I think on only 4 streams. 2 of which are in the same system (NW PA), and I've done it a lot of times there.

Mike, one of the streams was in a Schuylkill County stream, the last time I fished it was last summer and there were bows there then, we caught several, most concentrated just above the posted wire. Haven't been there this year yet. That has produced a trifecta several times.

The other was actually the Allegheny River, but WAAAAYYY up where you can jump across it, nearly 20 years ago. My take was that was a temporary, 1 time success deal, as I did not and do not know there to be a wild bow population there.

My understanding was that PA wild rainbows started with fall spawners from the PFBC, but if they "take" successfully, the population fairly quickly becomes a spring spawning population within a few generations. The hurdle to establishing a permanent population is making it to that point.

 

[salmonoid]

Rainbows would be the main ingredient for this trifecta challenge, for whatever it's worth and self sustaining populations of rainbows have been relatively rare in PA (thank god). The other two species already have tremendous overlap, so no real challenge there.

I saw in a report several years ago where there were fairly consistent long-term fish surveys done that one year a batch of stream-born rainbows popped up in a tributary to a HEAVILY stocked stream. So it could certainly happen in more than 5 places across the state depending on weather conditions for the year and whether the rainbows were successful at spawning.

I've read studies that indicate rainbow trout may displace brown trout. That will be interesting to witness unfold if that's how things go here eventually. Curious to see how the wild brown trout fanatics respond to wild rainbows wiping out their favorite fish. Oh the irony. Sorry for the digression.

I don't know if it was the same report, but I read a similar one a few years ago, where the quantity of rainbows present would have supported an easy Class A population designation. And then they disappeared the next year. I've only ever caught one wild looking rainbow out of that particular stream, but a few stocker rainbows do make it up out of the bigger water. And I caught a very small wild looking rainbow out of the bigger water one year, in the fall. Given the quantity of fish that are usually stocked, it would be hard for me to believe that a pair of 'bows couldn't figure something out every few years.

I've caught a wild looking rainbow out of one of the ANF tribs to Kinzua creek already (and hence a potentially wild trifecta that day). And have done it numerous times on some of the common streams for the trifecta, which are mentioned without being mentioned here.

The number of streams where it is possible on a consistent basis is definitely greater than 5 streams. And on an itinerant basis, it's probably in the multiple dozens.

 

[JSky]

There was an older article published about one watershed in the state that has a good wild rainbow population. At that time (about 20 years ago) the state recognized a dozen streams with notable wild rainbow populations. The article said rainbows require more alkaline water, higher gradient (similar to streams out west where they are native) which increases oxygen, and initial stocking of spring spawning rainbows from decades ago. That will really limit the amount of Class A rainbow waters we can have. And getting wild browns and brookies in the same stream is even more rare. We’re probably talking about a handful of watersheds and a dozen streams or so across this large state.