Wild trout issue revisited

[Maurice]

thedude1534 wrote:
This might be touchy with some people, and I hate to perpetuate the stereotype of flyfishers being elitist, but........

I just finished a weekend trip with me, the lone flyfisherman, and 5 spinner fisherman. I got a chance to watch some of these guys fishing, and I would be surprised if more than half of the fish they released survived. It wasn't so much the handling of the fish, they took them in nets and had wet hands, no laying on the ground, etc. However, almost all of the ones they cought had half inhaled a trebble hook lure, which resulted in a bloody detachment. Also, taking these hooks out took anywhere form 1 to 3 minutes, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the fish ended up belly up.

Personally I don't understand why you need three hooks on a lure, but that aside, does anyone know if there is a sharp contrast in the mortality rates between fly-fishing only, and all tackle wild trout areas? This is also assuming that those areas are catch and release, I guess you couldn't really apply this to a harvested section....

Dude,

I think it goes something like this...

C&R Fly fishing mortality 3-5%

C&R Artificial Lures mortality 15%

C&R Bait Mortality 30%

There was a controlled study done in a tank where they caught fish and released them in the same tank and monitored their survival. I cannot remember where we got the study from.

I should add that you had an opportunity to demonstrate the importance barbless single hooks on their spinners. Did you? I know its not a deal breaker in friendships to kill trout but I certainly would have hammered them pretty hard if I saw them struggling to release fish. A little peer pressure can go along way toward bringing the strays into the flock.

Things like...Hey you guys need a skillet over there?

Or...When you get that spinner out...throw him up on the bank and I'll go get some butter and onions. :lol:

Maurice

 

[FarmerDave]

thedude1534 wrote:
This might be touchy with some people, and I hate to perpetuate the stereotype of flyfishers being elitist, but........

I just finished a weekend trip with me, the lone flyfisherman, and 5 spinner fisherman. I got a chance to watch some of these guys fishing, and I would be surprised if more than half of the fish they released survived. It wasn't so much the handling of the fish, they took them in nets and had wet hands, no laying on the ground, etc. However, almost all of the ones they cought had half inhaled a trebble hook lure, which resulted in a bloody detachment. Also, taking these hooks out took anywhere form 1 to 3 minutes, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the fish ended up belly up.

Personally I don't understand why you need three hooks on a lure, but that aside, does anyone know if there is a sharp contrast in the mortality rates between fly-fishing only, and all tackle wild trout areas? This is also assuming that those areas are catch and release, I guess you couldn't really apply this to a harvested section....

Hooking a trout deep with a spinner usually happens while casting downsteam, or when fishing slow water. the trout hit it from downstream, which means if you are retrieving upstream, it is a strait shot to the belly. When retrieving with the current, it usually results in hookips in the corner of the mouth. It is the same with fly fishing (but not nearly to the same degree). It is all about education.

And about the treble hooks. They are harder to remove from the fish, but single hooks on a spinner are more likely to be taken deep.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do is pinch down the barbs on the trebles. It can actually increase the number of hookups, and make it a whole lot easier to remove after landing. Also, cast mostly upstream retrieving down.

I also believe that spinner fishing has a higher mortality rate, but since fly fishing also has a mortality rate, and both are probably below 10 percent when the anglers are careful, I don't get excited about either. I don't think very highly of the argument that my method is not as bad when they are in the same ball park. If I were concerned about ANY fish dying, I wouldn't fish. Even with bait fishing, the mortality rate can be lowered considerably by technique. But i don't use bait on wild trout streams, and haven't since i was a kid. When I use bait, it is with the understanding that a few fish will probably go home, which rules out the wild streams for me. I don't throw them back if odds are they won't make it.

I almost never fish the special regs areas either. Nothing against them. It is just a personal preference to seek out lower traffic areas.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear dude,

I usually knock down the barbs on the treble hooks on my spinners. I'm not keeping them anyway so I don't care if they occasionally fall off midstream.

By knocking down the barbs I can usually get the fish to fall off the hook at my feet just by giving it some slack and shaking the rod tip lightly.

One other way to make spinner fishing easier on trout is to go to larger spinners and/or larger hooks on spinners. Those small spinners with dinky size 10 and 12 treble hooks are two small. All a fish has to do is close it's mouth over the hook and atleast two of the hook tines, and sometimes all three, stick the fish.

Moving up to a size 6 or 8 hook makes it far more likely that only one hook tine will stick in the fish. Have your buddies try that, it really works!

Regards,
Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Bamboozle]

When I was a spin fishing trout fisherman; I always used single hook spinners because they were easier to remove AND they got hung up WAY less than trebles.

(Attn: spin fishermen, learn to tie flies and reproduce the feathered spinner treble look on single hooks; cut off the treble; then get some tiny split rings and you are in business. You WILL be amazed how much less time you are spending getting un-snagged)

I can't recall any difference in how deep I hooked fish with a single hook versus a treble.

I think trebles are used for balance on a lure but I'm no lure designer.

As far as bait fishing goes; while I don't do bait for trout I do on some other species; most notably Smallmouth Bass.

Circle hooks are absolutely amazing! I have caught hundreds of Smallies on bait using circle hooks and 100% of the fish I have landed and released were hooked in the corner of the mouth.

I only WISH 100% of my fly hooked fish were hooked the same way.

 

[Chaz]

The mortality of brown trout release after catching them with flies is less than 1%, brook trout are a bit higher at approximately 7%. At the other end of the scale is bait angling which can be as high as 40 %, I don't recall the mortality of spin fishing but it is somewhere in the middle. I agree though that you don't need a treble hook to land trout, though the Nale's would say that their mortality is very low, I don't believe that other anglers take the care that the Nale's do when hooking, playing and releasing fish.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Ah, 1, 3, 5, 7% mortality is a little low from the studies I remember reading, at least if we're talking 72 hr mortality. More in the 10-15% range, if I remember correctly.

I also remeber single hook artificial lures and fly-fishing having a similar mortality. Any tight lined fishing will result in fewer gut hooks.

And taking pictures of fish out of the water definitely increases mortality a lot.

Maurice and Chaz, if you find your references, I'll find mine.

 

[Maurice]

OhioOutdoorsman wrote:

And taking pictures of fish out of the water definitely increases mortality a lot.

.

Baloney...Camera around my neck. Fish brought to hand, cradled, lift, snap, unhook fish. All of 10 to 15 secs. Id it the taking of the picture or the "out of the water" part that concerns you?

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Id it the taking of the picture or the "out of the water" part that concerns you?

The out of water part.

http://tinyurl.com/qcyb7

The above paper is a comprehensive review of catch and release mortality. A very good read.

Page 16 discusses a study where a 30s simulated fight with a fish is followed by releasing it.

Synopsis:

72 hr survival:

Not removed from water: 88%
30s out of water: 62%
60s out of water: 28%

Best case scenario you kill 12% and you go up from there.......

 

[Wulff-Man]

Thanks for the study, Ohio. I think I may have seen it before, but it's good stuff and I'm going to save it for future reference. The references also give a lot of possibilities for more info if you want to spend the time doing it.

Just one correction, though. The survival percentages you gave above (from page 10 of the paper) were after a 10 minute simulated fight, not 30 seconds. There were some other physiological affects that were based on a 30 second fight (actually, they "chased" fish for 30 seconds, which they said simulated angling). So the motality logically wouldn't be nearly as high for a more typical fight time. But the lesson is the same: the longer they are kept out of the water, the more chance for harm. Personally, I think a quick picture can be done without much harm if they're only out of the water for, say, less than 10 seconds, which can be done if you are prepared before lifting them out, especially if you are doing it with someone else to take the picture. But maybe you should think twice if you had to play the fish for a fairly long time.