Wild trout, Geology, & Bedrock. More info?

[steveo27]

Ive fished the lower end of it with no luck. I didnt really fish it hard or explore it very well since it was the end of the day. There is a large waterfall at the lower end of creek and I didnt venture up past it. I do remember it being "slimy" at the lower end, but this was the summer time and everything in that watershed was VERY low.

 

[k-bob]

Thanks I wondered about it but I am across the state. Around Schuylkill cty there can be signs of higher buffering in mauch chunk streams, for ex., tumbling run is listed as class a brookies, but I think it has brown trout, which suggests the stream is not overly acidic.

 

[franklin]

I have several springs on my property and would like an analysis of the water. Not for drinking but per above thread to see if the water is likely to support trout. Where is a good place to get the water samples tested?

 

[PAgeologist]

Franklin - you could look up a local environmental services laboratory. Tell them what you are looking for and they can recommend some analysis. I would imagine you would want pH, Alkalinity, some metals. Perhaps they could recommend others. I am guessing it should be less than $100 per sample.

Most labs will drop off and pick up samples and they will collect them if you don't want to do it yourself.

A call to the PFBC may also be useful to see what they look for in water analysis.

 

[franklin]

PAgeologist wrote:
Franklin - you could look up a local environmental services laboratory. Tell them what you are looking for and they can recommend some analysis. I would imagine you would want pH, Alkalinity, some metals. Perhaps they could recommend others. I am guessing it should be less than $100 per sample.

Most labs will drop off and pick up samples and they will collect them if you don't want to do it yourself.

A call to the PFBC may also be useful to see what they look for in water analysis.

Any idea if Penn State offers such a service? Right down the road.

Edit: Part of the reason I want to have it analyzed is that as I mentioned above the property is right in the area that was covered by the linked Bucknell work.

 

[k-bob]

fwiw, I have had better results with the linked water pH test kit than paper strips or electronic gauges:

http://www.hach.com/ph-test-kit-5-6-8-4-ph-model-17f/product?id=7640214952

if the pH of a trib isnt too bad in a high winter discharge with snowmelt, then acidity probably isnt a problem for it.

 

[PAgeologist]

Franklin - I would think that Penn State would provide such a service. I know that they do analytical services for soil. If you are in the State College area, I know there are a couple labs that provide those services.

K-bob - those are great kits. We use them all the time at work. The only drawback with them is they aren't great if the water has a tint to it. The paper strips are not good. The electronic gauges are good but only if they are properly maintained and calibrated frequently.

 

[k-bob]

PAgeologist: "K-bob - those are great kits. We use them all the time at work. The only drawback with them is they aren't great if the water has a tint to it."

Thanks for this comment. I like the Hach kit, and I am interested in your opinion. I dont have training in geology, have just tried to read about acid rain / deposition and trout in PA, and apply ideas.

On the water tint issue, I have most recently dealt with a tint from tannic/ boggy water. But at that point I was using a Lovibond aluminum test kit with a lowish range (0-.3 mg/l test range, when .2 mg/l for 2 days = lethal to trout) and it seemed to work well. Will remember the water tint issues with the Hach pH test kit.... thanks

 

[PAgeologist]

I don't know about those aluminum test kits. We generally stick with the iron kits. That detection level you listed for that kit seems really low for field testing equipment. I think our lab has a detection limit of 0.3 mg/l.

Tannic water is tough to deal with. It messes with the colors. Plus you generally have all sorts of compounds in tannic water that could mess with field test kit chemicals.

 

[k-bob]

PAgeologist: here is alum test kit:

http://www.lovibondwater.com/product/checkit-comparator-aluminium.aspx

the low range, it reads 0-.3 mg/l, is good because the lethal level for trout is quite low (it is .2 mg/l for 2 days) ...

lovibond kit seems to work quite well: when the alum is higher, much over .1 mg/l, gives a radical purple color that tannin might not mess up 🙂

streams that fish well seem to have very low aluminum (for ex., .05 mg/l) at a low summer/base flow.

this time of year w snowmelt some acid-deposition influenced streams have lethal levels of alum without even very high discharge

 

[k-bob]

thanks pageologist for pointing out that tannic water may affect test results in unpredictable ways. tannic water certainly has a tint and the pH and alum kits are colorwheels, as well.

results I get from the lovibond alum test kit, which focuses on low levels of dissolved aluminum in water, seem to make sense. for ex., dissolved alum of over .15 mg/l in a white-streambed montalto bedrock quartz stream even at low flow. looked for fish a bit and saw none.

I am just using the aluminum test kit to choose which stream coming down a mountain to try first. test does have to read low levels of dissolved aluminum, because the lethal level for trout is low:

kirby groundtruthing paper: "Dissolved aluminum concentrations were much higher for Tuscarora streams (0.2 mg/L; approximately the lethal limit for brook trout) than for non-Tuscarora streams (0.03 mg/L)"

(i also have a lamotte aluminum test kit which reads 0-.5 mg/l. with that wider range, the lamotte kit is less effective than the lovibond 0-.3 kit for showing the low levels of aluminum, such as .05 mg/l at base flows, that seem like a good sign for trout. both kits seems nice and of course these things were not made for fishing 🙂 )

 

[k-bob]

for franklin, may be advantages to having own pH test kit. pH varies by flow. for example, pH may be lower in hi flow w/ snowmelt . could test then, and compare to nearby streams known to have trout.

 

[k-bob]

Nice psu/schrader study in Figure 11 on p32 shows small trib pH before, during, & after a major flood.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237424572_Schrader_Creek_Watershed_Synoptic_Water_Quality_Survey

The pH declines at high discharge, so spring and winter precip events can help show acid rain effects.

On another issue, I am using base-flow aluminum, not alum in flood condition levels, as input to guessing fish populations.

Along with the pH info, the schrader study has brookie surveys for some small tribs in Fig 15/p35, and dissolved alum info before and after flood in Fig 13/p34.

If you start w/ the brookie surveys in Fig 15, the small tribs with low brookie#s are Mill02, Lye, Roll, and LScrdr. (ep18 is main Schrader, not a trib).

Using pre-flood pH in Fig 11, the levels for 2 of the 4 tribs w/ low brookies stand out as low pH (or=.05): Lye, Roll, and LScrdr. (All are over .1 mg/l, red flag 'cause lethal aluminum = .2 for 2 days and it will increase in flood)

Makes sense that aluminum might better signal trout problems, since alum is the actual cause of fish loss in hi discharge. ("Al concentration and duration of high Al concentration are the most important determinants of fish survival." , p33)

 

[k-bob]

Schrader trib data from psu study, suggesting association between pre-flood alum and lethal alum levels in big flood.

 

[k-bob]

see that I mislabeled the trout variable, it is brookie #/ha, not kg/ha...

 

[k-bob]

The aluminum test kit I have is for total dissolved aluminum. w/o a distinction between organic and inorganic AL... sounds like this may be OK:

"AL TD rather than dissolved inorganic monomeric AL concentrations
(AL IM) were used to assess toxicity of aluminum
to brook trout In this study. AL IM has been found to be primarily
responsible for toxic effects of Al (Driscoll et al. 1980; Baker et al. 1990). However, AL IM and AL TD concentrations
were similar in the streams wlth high AL (Einn,
Stone, Roberts runs) and a larger number of AL TD than
AL IM samples were collected over a wider range of stream
flows for all streams. Use of AL TD caused little error in
this study. "

"Episodic flow-duration analysis:
a method of assessing toxic exposure
of brook trout Salvelinus fon tinalis)
to episodic increases in aluminum"

David R. DeWaIle, Bryan R. Swistock, and William E. Sharpe