WHY NOT?

[afishinado]

Why Not protect 90%+ of the wild trout without changing any stream designations…..just change the size minimum for harvest to 10”. Now that the PFBC has upped the size of stocked trout beginning this year, all trout under 10” are likely to be wild or stocked as a fingerling. 90% to 99.9% on some wild streams are

 

[ryguyfi]

Thats all well and good... but a law, is a law, is a law; and laws are made to be broken. How many people, if they're eating wild trout are actually adhering to the min requirements. And how often is a pfbc officer there to reprimand them. In the few years I've been fishing I've only seen an officer twice, once when I had my license in my car and another in ohio when I didn't have an ohio liscense... oops... my point being, whether the limit is 9" or 10" it's not going to stop the insensitive people from doing what they're doing. How many people do you see take home a stocked trout, bass, anything that is under the size limit. I know i've seen it and most everyone else probably has. As posted in the WHY? thread most people don't know the ramifications of their actions but some do it out of selfishness. I don't think raising the size limit is going to keep those people out of harming our few natural brookie streams. That's my 2 cents.... leaves me with $1.98 in my wallet.

 

[MKern]

I do think it is a great idea, but ry is right. these people don't care about rules. I always see people fishing bait in the DHALO section of my home stream. They do it simply because they tear the signs down. However, ignorance is not an excuse to break a law.
The law would probably only effect the already law abiding fishers.
As an aside... My county has 1 fish officer, and 2 deputy officers. One of the deputy officers is a boss of mine and hasn't been out ont he stream to monitor for illegal activity in over 2 years. By the way, I live in the largest county (by land mass) in PA.

 

[afishinado]

All true ryguyfi, but it would be a step in the right direction. It was said that PA would never pass or enforce antler restrictions on buck harvest, but the law was passed and is enforced for the most part.

 

[JackM]

I think the average size of stocked trout is going up, but not the minimum size. Leaving 7-11 inch trout in stocked streams to belly up by July isn't a good idea. That said, I would think that lowering the harvest limit and raising the size requirement on non-stocked streams would be a good idea. I would recommend raising the size to 8" and lowering the bag limit to 4 for the first three years, then raising the size to 9" and lowering the creel load to 3 after that should have a positive effect, while not infringing too badly upon the privilege of anglers who wish to harvest wild trout.

While it is true that your typical poacher won't be controlled by tighter regulations, the average Joe Fisherman will and I think these latter types outnumber the poachers at least 10-1 if not more.

 

[CRB]

From speaking and working with officers, commissioners, and Dr. Austin, the PAF&BC is working for "US". If "we" can muster enough in our ranks we can get the regulations changed.
Why not change Wild Trout regulations that can show case and enhance clean water and beautiful wild fish?
We'll need to work with the Fisheries Committee, the Fish Commissioners, within our ranks for support. It is not unrealistic but it will take some work organizing, working on an achievable plan, getting support on board, and implicating the plan.

:hammer:

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear afishinado,

Unless you want to pay $ 150.00 for a fishing license I say leave the regulations alone.

The more exclusionary you make things the less participants there will be and the cost per participant will rise to the point where just a few people are paying for the whole pie.

I know it's winter and it's been tough to get out and go fishing for a couple of weeks for many people, but it's about time we realize that the 100 or so participants on this board represent only a minute fraction of PA fishermen.

Howabout we leave well enough alone for a while? Between the feel good idea of buying access rights everwhere and eliminating harvest everywhere you are soon going to end fishing as we know it in the state of Pennsylvania.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[afishinado]

Tim,

I respect your opinion and I understand your message…I even agree with it to some degree. I do believe that you are overstating the effect. Put and take has its place and should continue in marginal streams. C&R has its place and should continue in quality streams. The two can coexist. The point was only adding an inch or two to the minimum harvest is a simple and painless way to protect more fish without changing the designation of the stream.

You’re a smallmouth afishinado in the Harrisburg area; has the 15” big bass regulations hurt the Susquehanna with respect to people fishing the River? The new regulations, after instituted, enhanced the appeal of the River to all fishermen until the population crash of a few years ago.

I believe that there are a lot more fisherman (not just fly fisherman) that value a good day catching quality fish on the water without keeping them, than value having fish on the stringer today and none to be found tomorrow. I know you’ve seen the crowds at the LL, Spring, Yellow Breeches…. and all the special regulation areas year-round.

Maurice and others mentioned that they try to educate fisherman when seeing wild fish and stocked fish on the stringer. I too will make an effort to educate, but not preach.

Tim, I’m was born in the coal mine region of Northeatern PA. I know the mentality of which you speak. But I have family and friends still up there and a few years ago, they would bring home stringers of fish every trip. A lot of them now practice C&R. I know of a bunch of guys starting to use circle hooks with bait for C&R.

Times are achanging, but I agree that it’s not too smart to push it too far, too fast. Good luck

 

[Fishidiot]

As a general philosophy I tend to lean toward longer seasons and stricter bag limits. I'll second JackM's incremental plan.

 

[flyman]

I don't want too sound pious, but for the life of me I can't understand the mindset of some people. In this day of disappearing outdoor recreation in a natural setting why would someone really want to keep wild trout. To me it is akin to stomping on a butterfly.
If you need to fill a stringer there are plenty of approved waters.
Eat some bluegills, crappie or catfish. I know I'm preaching to the choir, I just don't see the satifaction in eating a resorce that is so hard to replace.
I would approve of an additional stamp to fish wild streams, with a no kill reg. if there was the possibility of improving the resource.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear afishinado,

That's for the kind words about me. I was just trying to start some lively conversation more than anything else. Personally, I haven't kept a fish besides a bluefish, flounder, or spanish mackeral in about 4 years so in reality a regulation change would not effect me very much, if at all.

I do think that very restrictive regulations will cause some problems with the general fishing population though. How much is a matter of conjecture, it could cause some people to forego fishing all together, it could cause others to become outlaw neck snappers too, though I suspect most folks would fall somewhere in between?

I do have a question or two about changing the size limit though?

1) Do you think that it would do much more than change the size at which fish are "cropped" from the population?

2) If the 10" limit did come about do you foresee any problems with the care and handling of the sub-legal fish that could eliminate or reduce the potential benefit of the size increase?

3) Do you think that there is a sustainable number of fish a given stream can support and if so how do you determine and maintain that balance across size ranges and year classes?

4) Where are you from in the Coal Region? I'm originally from Schuylkill County.

I don't expect you to have any clear cut answers to these questions, like I said at the beginning of my post my goal is simply to get some conversation going.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear flyman,

At the risk of getting too many conversations going at once, why shoot a wild turkey when better tasting ones are available 24/7/365 at your local mega-supermarket?

Likewise, why pick wild blueberries, or raspberries, or chestnuts when you can buy them? Aren't you depriving all the pretty birds and animals of an important food source?

I'm not singling you out, but I think there is a growing group of fisherman that need to be reminded that fishing, even catch and release fishing, is very much a blood sport and the very act of fishing is detrimental to the fish to one degree or another.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[troutpreserver]

Anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between a wild trout and a stocked trout - all wild trout should have to be released immediately everywhere anytime. Those caught killing them should be beaten with a stick.

Too bad the issue is money and not the resource.

Ultimate Fighting is a blood sport, not catch-and-release fly fishing. Yes, I'm jabbing a fish in the lips and pulling it through the water as it vehemently reststs as if it's life depended on it... Then I let it go. No blood.

 

[MattBoyer]

troutpreserver wrote:
Anyone with half a brain can tell the difference between a wild trout and a stocked trout - all wild trout should have to be released immediately everywhere anytime. Those caught killing them should be beaten with a stick.

Too bad the issue is money and not the resource.

Ultimate Fighting is a blood sport, not catch-and-release fly fishing. Yes, I'm jabbing a fish in the lips and pulling it through the water as it vehemently reststs as if it's life depended on it... Then I let it go. No blood.

Sigh. We get it. You good. Them bad. Why did you go and waste all those words to say that? This seemed like a reasonable discussion regarding alternatives to the current system until the guy wih 5 total posts(so far all of them seemingly negative) jumps in pounding his chest and talking smack to people who have literally helped hundreds of people to understand what "anyone with half a brain" should know. Maybe instead of beating people with a stick you should try to help and teach them? Some people just don't know. Some don't care. I'm also glad to know you've never killed one single trout........ever. You're my new idol.

Boyer

 

[Fishidiot]

TimMurphy: Good points as usual.
I am far from being an expert - I have, however, fly fished for trout in PA for 30 years and I will be the first to admit that I cannot always tell the difference between wild and stocked trout. This is particularly true with brown trout. I think I can tell most of the time. In some waters there is virtually no doubt whether they're wild or not but many waters, like the Little Juniata, which have both wild and stocked populations and where the stockies hold over...they can be almost identical. Many of you remember an intriguing post on the "old" site. I don't recall who did it but it involved photos of brown trout showing how difficult it is to tell wild from stocked.
Whether one prefers to release all trout is a matter of personal view. I enjoy eating fish and don't apologize for keeping a few stockies on local streams in the spring managed as put and take. These fish likely won't survive the summer. On streams where there is a possibility of wild fish being present I release all trout.

 

[troutbert]

Re: "The more exclusionary you make things the less participants there will be and the cost per participant will rise to the point where just a few people are paying for the whole pie.
I know it's winter and it's been tough to get out and go fishing for a couple of weeks for many people, but it's about time we realize that the 100 or so participants on this board represent only a minute fraction of PA fishermen."

C&R streams like Penns Creek, Spring Cr, Little J, Fishing Cr, Yellow Breeches and Slate Run are so popular that people constantly complain about the crowding. Yellowstone Park is largely C&R and that is a very popular fishing destination.

Lots of bass fisherman fish C&R now.

I don't think the miniscule minority idea holds true any more.

 

[JackM]

In my opinion, it is selfish to expect everyone to give up harvesting wild trout so as to maximize the catch-and-release entertainment value for the rest of us. Both interests can be accomodated with proper regulations. We can disagree with where the limitations are set, but I think that anyone "with half a brain" should be able to understand that some level of allowable harvest can be consistent with preserving the viability of a wild fishery.

 

[afishinado]

Ditto what Jack said.....C&R and catch & keep can coexist if the proper regulations are in place and enforced. In other words, the answer is somewhat in the middle of both views, which is usually the case, IMO. The only argument should be how to regulate to accommodate both C&R and C&K. I believe that many, including the PFBC, underestimate the attraction of a good quality fishing stream with C&R or restricted harvest regulations. Build it and they will come! Check out the parking areas along nearly every special regulation trout section of our streams!

The financial reality is that the PFBC does not have the money to continue to maintain hatcheries at a high level to stock trout. The resource must be stretched out to get more with less. Wild trout is a renewable “resource”. Preserve and enhance the wild trout, and stock where appropriate. The PFBC has no choice but to move in that direction from my point of view.

Ps. Tim - I was born and raised in West Pittston, in the Wyoming Valley between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton.

 

[Bamboozle]

I have a stupid question: why do hunters almost universally feel that managing the herd or flock by selective harvest is essential to good hunting but we fly fisherman feel we MUST practice total C&R?

I don't keep any fish by choice not guilt; but I really don't see the harm in well managed harvest. I fish almost exclusively in wild trout streams where harvest is permitted, often times with no special regs. I have been fishing in these places for more than 20 years and to be honest, the biggest impact in my catch rates and fish size has been due to pollution or flooding not over harvest.

I think a lot of fly fishers go through a stage where after reading all the books, articles, and hearing all of the impassioned soap box speeches; they believe that anybody who harvests is a barbarian and should be stripped of the long rod. I know I did when I first started. Now I realize that as long as there are fishermen, some of them will actually fish for FOOD, imagine that!

I like the old PFBC slogan, "Don't catch your limit, limit your catch". Assuming everyone will embrace total C&R and the state will subsequently legislate it is a fantasy.

 

[Wulff-Man]

Not that I totally disagree with everything you say, Bamboozle, but there is a big difference between hunting and fishing. You can't have success at hunting if you don't actually kill something, but you can when fishing. Unless maybe they start to hunt with high-powered paint balls. But that wouldn't be a good idea for bear hunting. Anyway, I don't know of many situations where wild trout populations would be improved by culling.