Why do I instantly bird’s nest tangle when I fish a drop fly!?

[NovaJeff]

Amateur FF here with years of light experience. I generally get the most bang for my buck using a nymph of sorts, a shot weight, and an indicator.

Including yesterday, I’ve had many people ask why I’m not using a second fly and double my chances. I usually don’t because it ALWAYS ends in a disaster of wasted 15 minutes, wasted line, knots and sometimes flies.

I got greedy yesterday and tied an 18 midge onto my 16 hot head. I tied a clinch to the bottom of the U on the hook of the hot head, and then tied on the midge about 16” down.

What tends to happen is that when I snag a rock or think I have a strike, the line flies out of the water and plops in the opposite direction, and sure enough it’s all over. I’ll check it after a couple of casts and it’s like a rabid cat got to play with my rig and there are knots not even known yet to man that exist. Time to get out the snippers and waste 10 minutes starting over.

Maybe I need to suck it up and try a method of dropping the second fly with a short length of line directly off of my main tippet (i.e. nail knot or something?) and it tie the second one off the hook of the first?

Other than that, I just don’t know. I feel like I can’t help the line shock and shoot that happens when I need to unsnag the fly for a rock, or I miss a “strike”, and that’s when it all seems to pile up.

I end up fishing a single nymph 90% of the time just because of this headache.

Any thoughts appreciated!

 

[SBecker]

Use a double surgeon's knot to attach your dropper fly. Bet it solves most of your problems.

 

[NovaJeff]

Use a double surgeon's knot to attach your dropper fly. Bet it solves most of your problems.

Thank you. I will practice and give this a try, and I agree it probably HAS to improve things!

About 4-6" of tippet dangling that second fly with the dub surg knot, on average? Also, I'm used to having the tinier fly dropped down below my first larger one. In this case where I'm tying it on, is it typical to do the smaller one as the branch-off?

Thanks!

 

[wildtrout2]

I think you problem is more a result of dropper length than which knot you use to connect it. It's been my experience that the longer the dropper is, the more apt it is to tangle. jmo

 

[Bamboozle]

Are you using a furled leader...?

If so, is it a mono or fluorocarbon furled leader...?

If so, lose it and use a thread furled leader or a knotted or extruded leader instead. That will reduce the tangles you are getting when your leader suddenly pulls free.

Second, I usually do a dropper off the hook bend and my dropper is ALWAYS 1-2 sizes heavier than my tippet. So if my tippet is 4X, my dropper is 3X and never more than 12" long.

If I do a dropper off of my blood knot, it's always the heavier tag that I use for the dropper.

Also, open up you loops on your forward & back cast. Tight loops with a dropper are more likely to tail and cause problems.

Good luck!

 

[NovaJeff]

Are you using a furled leader...?

If so, is it a mono or fluorocarbon furled leader...?

If so, lose it and use a thread furled leader or a knotted or extruded leader instead. That will reduce the tangles you are getting when your leader suddenly pulls free.

Second, I usually do a dropper off the hook bend and my dropper is ALWAYS 1-2 sizes heavier than my tippet. So if my tippet is 4X, my dropper is 3X and never more than 12" long.

If I do a dropper off of my blood knot, it's always the heavier tag that I use for the dropper.

Also, open up you loops on your forward & back cast. Tight loops with a dropper are more likely to tail and cause problems.

Good luck!

Thank you.

The leader is a really "standard" Orvis 9 ft 5x nylon knotless tapered. Beyond that, I admit I don't know what it is. I assume mono? I'm not familiar with furled.

Interesting that you use a HEAVIER line for your drop. I've never tried that. I was going 7x off of my 5x leader tip.

Helpful to know about the heavier fly going on the drop when tying it off the line, too.

It certainly COULD be my casting that tangles it all up, but I still have a feeling that it's mostly when I yank the rod thinking it's a strike, but tends to be stuck on a rock, so the whole thing slingshots way back, and I usually have to do some awful forward slash with the rod, with the rig mid-air, so it doesn't fling back into the trees and get stuck. It's a recipe for disaster, I know lol

 

[Bamboozle]

Thank you.

The leader is a really "standard" Orvis 9 ft 5x nylon knotless tapered. Beyond that, I admit I don't know what it is. I assume mono? I'm not familiar with furled.

Interesting that you use a HEAVIER line for your drop. I've never tried that. I was going 7x off of my 5x leader tip.

Helpful to know about the heavier fly going on the drop when tying it off the line, too.

It certainly COULD be my casting that tangles it all up, but I still have a feeling that it's mostly when I yank the rod thinking it's a strike, but tends to be stuck on a rock, so the whole thing slingshots way back, and I usually have to do some awful forward slash with the rod, with the rig mid-air, so it doesn't fling back into the trees and get stuck. It's a recipe for disaster, I know lol

I won't bore with the details of furled leaders, your leader is fine.

However, I will bet the farm if you lose that 7X dropper, you will also lose most of your tangles. With a dropper that fine & limp, it is inevitable it will wrap around the leader. That's why I always go heavier/stiffer on my droppers, to keep them from tangling on my leader. Not to mention, a size 18 fly doesn't need a 7X tippet, especially subsurface.

Try a 4X dropper off the hook bend with a 5X tippet, keep the dropper under 12" long and IF you can get over the excitement of a "hit," try lifting gently to set the hook instead of "yanking."

To be honest, when fly fishing for trout, all you are trying to do is penetrate the soft tissue in and around the fish's mouth with a super sharp small fly hook. Just tightening the line, lifting or GENTLY setting the hook is all that is required.

It's not like you are trying to blast a size 4/0 hook thorough a thick soft plastic bait into the jaw of a largemouth bass...

Good luck and have fun!!

 

[KeviR]

Try to use a hook set that is downstream and parallel to the water. (If you can change a habit.) If you do that, the flies will likely never leave the water, and therefore not tangle.

I totally agree with Bamboozle:
"It's not like you are trying to blast a size 4/0 hook thorough a thick soft plastic bait into the jaw of a largemouth bass... "

A small, quick wrist flick is all that is required to set the hook.

 

[NovaJeff]

Try to use a hook set that is downstream and parallel to the water. (If you can change a habit.) If you do that, the flies will likely never leave the water, and therefore not tangle.

I totally agree with Bamboozle:
"It's not like you are trying to blast a size 4/0 hook thorough a thick soft plastic bait into the jaw of a largemouth bass... "

A small, quick wrist flick is all that is required to set the hook.

Thanks guys. I'm a kayak bass/perch/crappie fisher most of the time, so I am definitely guilty of hauling the rod on a hook set.

Regarding the downstream set...I always keep that in mind, but it seems often impossible with what I am trying to deal with fishing. i.e. if I'm in the water facing the bank and cast upstream and mend my line and follow it perpendicular to me and then slack the line and let it drift downstream....wouldn't I only have a downstream set if the fish hit on the last third of that scenario? If the hit was soon after casting, or in the middle of the drift, I think the hook set would be upstream or neutral?

I would love to engrain the "gentle lift" set into my fly fishing...will work on that.

The way yesterday ended might not help me do that though...after 5 hours in the water, on one of my last casts, the indicator got hammered in a relatively deep, slower pool. I set the hook decently hard, kept the rod tip up and mended that line in and never let it slack. Decently large fish came to the surface...wasn't a trout...either a small mouth or a good perch...got him within about 4' of me and he shook my 16 hothead pheasant (and then the line went FLYING and almost took out my buddy who came over to see the fish, when he shook it since I had tension on the line. So my thought coming out of that was that I didn't have enough hook set in. Then again, we aren't talking trout lips

 

[hooker-of-men]

In my experience, sometimes the fish just throws it - especially if they start jumping. I don't think it has a tremendous amount to do with the hookset when talking about light tackle.

As said in the above comments, it's a different story when you can just slam a hookset on a bass and horse it in on heavy line. But try that when fishing with lighter leader/tippet for trout, and fish are going to break you off even more often than they would throw the hook if you were playing them gently.

Just my two cents.

 

[springer1]

I think you problem is more a result of dropper length than which knot you use to connect it. It's been my experience that the longer the dropper is, the more apt it is to tangle. jmo

+1

 

[Bamboozle]

Thanks guys. I'm a kayak bass/perch/crappie fisher most of the time, so I am definitely guilty of hauling the rod on a hook set...

I have a buddy I fish with out of a boat. When he sets the hook on anything, I can feel the boat move as opposed to me that typically just uses a flick of the wrist... EXCEPT when I am fishing soft plastic baits and trying to penetrate that as well as the fish...

A bit of advice, if your kayak is moving when you set the hook, you MAY be jerking too hard.

 

[KeviR]

What I meant by a downstream set is that the rod tip moves downstream. (And roughly parallel to the water surface.) In the scenario you describe of casting upstream, early in the drift, the downstream set is easy. Once the fly is downstream of me, I generally pick up and re-cast. Sometimes I let the flies swing out below me and if the fish takes on the swing, you really don't need to set the hook at all. The fish usually hooks itself. To whatever degree you move the rod tip, sweep it to the downstream side. If the rod is already pointing directly downstream when the fish takes, just hold on and let the fish do the work. My experience is that raising the rod tip right then usually results in the fly coming out.

 

[troutbert]

Just using one fly is a good option, IMHO.

 

[NovaJeff]

What I meant by a downstream set is that the rod tip moves downstream. (And roughly parallel to the water surface.) In the scenario you describe of casting upstream, early in the drift, the downstream set is easy. Once the fly is downstream of me, I generally pick up and re-cast. Sometimes I let the flies swing out below me and if the fish takes on the swing, you really don't need to set the hook at all. The fish usually hooks itself. To whatever degree you move the rod tip, sweep it to the downstream side. If the rod is already pointing directly downstream when the fish takes, just hold on and let the fish do the work. My experience is that raising the rod tip right then usually results in the fly coming out.

Just using one fly is a good option, IMHO.

That's only a 50% chance of catching one, though.

If I multiply my catch on Sunday by 2, if I had been able to cast 2 flies at once, I'd have caught.....

zero.

 

[krayfish2]

IMHO, jerking movement, abrupt change of direction sounds like it is some of your issue. If you use a single fly, shot and Indi, think you will suffer the same fate. You have to try and keep any movements flowing smoothly, slow down the stroke and try to keep the loop more open. Feels lazy and slow compared to dry fly stroke. This is coming from a guy who's killed a dozen guide spools of flouro by knotting up 3 nymph rigs. Yeah, dumb enough to try and throw 3 fly rig 50' into a 25 mph wind. I'll save you time and money by letting you know it doesn't work real well 😉.

Another thing to consider is the weight distribution of the leader. If the top fly is a small tungsten beadhead, below that you pinch on a B or BB shot which goes 15" to an unweighted soft hackle...ugh. Hold that out of the water, give it a slight jiggle...boom... bird nest. Drop shot rig or swapping the weighted/unweighted flies might solve some of the tangles. Not a guarantee but it should help.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

lose that 7X dropper, you will also lose most of your tangles.

Yep.

I can't remember the last time I used 7x, and I fish the upper D a lot. I would go that fine for extremely small flies or, maybe, if all else fails for super selective trout. I can usually get away with 4x, occasionally drop to 5x, rarely 6x. Air mends, longer tippet and generally good casting are your best bet. As your skills develop, keep this in mind. It will push you to be a better fly angler.

Super fine tippet is usually used as a crutch, in my experience. I can also lead to more "dead trout" C&R from overplaying on fine tippet.

 

[wildtrout2]

That's only a 50% chance of catching one, though.

If I multiply my catch on Sunday by 2, if I had been able to cast 2 flies at once, I'd have caught.....

zero.

So, if you use a dropper it gives you a 100% chance of catching one?

 

[troutbert]

Fishing with 2 flies may increase your catch rate, but it won't double it. Trout take the fly on the end more than flies further up the leader.

And if you consider the time spent tying in an additional fly, and dealing with tangle-messes, the incremental benefit of adding an additional fly comes down to only a factor of 1.368. FACT!!

 

[redietz]

Fishing with 2 flies may increase your catch rate, but it won't double it.

OTOH, it may take it from nothing to substantial.

I used to regularly sight fish a team of San Juan worm with a size 18 pheasant tail behind it. Fish would sometimes move ten feet or more to check out the SJW, heading straight toward it. After they decided it wasn't something to eat, they would the notice the PT and eagerly accept it. Without the SJW, they wouldn't move the ten feet to even notice the PT.

One fly can act as an attractor while the other seals the deal. Too many times I've removed a "non-productive" fly from a team only to have the "productive" fly suddenly stop working, and then start working again when I replaced the "non-productive" fly. That goes for nymphs, wet flies, and dry dropper rigs.