Where to send my concern...

[jifigz]

So I was really happy to see that Kish in Mifflin County just had its Class A section expanded by several miles of stream length. That is great, great news as I feel that the Kish deserves that. However, what I am disappointed about, is that this new section of Class A water is still being stocked. I noticed they are stocking this section with only Rainbows now and no Browns, but still, I would like to see a cessation of stocking in this section. The section of the stream that has been designated Class A for years is not stocked and has been that way for as long as I've been interested in high quality cold water and trout. So, who do I send my concerns to? Sure, I could call around and get the runaround and maybe find a good target to send my concerns, but I'd like to no what avenue others have taken and gotten a good response from. I don't want to get generic answers and responses with my messages getting lost in the bureaucracy and having no real impact.

I actually would like to see that stream not stocked at all, but since it is our largest stream in the county and has a ton of access and great water, that will probably never happen.

 

[MKern]

They shouldn't stock any stream in our area, but they do.

I once went to Treaster on opening day (to avoid the crowd) and was surprised by the number of people there, but I've never caught a stocked fish out of it.

Sorry I can't help with who to contact though. I too doubt they will ever cease stocking the Kish, especially for that tournament.

 

[jifigz]

Oh my lord, that "tournament" is ridiculous. It brings some people from quite a distance to participate in that zoo. And I agree, not a single stream in Mifflin County should be stocked. And I mean that, NOT A SINGLE STREAM!

 

[troutbert]

The PFBC office in Harrisburg.

The PFBC Commissioner for your region.

The state legislators in your district.

Just send them a letter.

 

[Mike]

Looks like you possibly answered your own concern in your last paragraph.

 

[TimRobinsin]

but why can't you stop stocking it mike?

why does it have to be stocked?

not trying to start anything, just would like your input.

 

[Mike]

My comment was generic in nature as it sounds like the characteristics of a stream that would receive high angler usage.

 

[jifigz]

Mike wrote:
My comment was generic in nature as it sounds like the characteristics of a stream that would receive high angler usage.

Given its size, it certainly receives heavy pressure for the crazy tagged fish tournament and the opening of the season. After a few weeks the pressure goes way, way, way down as is the case for most places around the state I'm guessing. My only prohelm with the heavy stockings on Kish is that it is a quality trout stream it's whole length and I feel, if managed properly, would flourish and be a top notch wild trout fishery. The stream has a good population of wild trout it's entire length. Even through the heavy stockings the stream maintains a very healthy population of wild browns. Imagine what it most likely could be though. A stream that size with lots of food for trout that maintains proper temps year round....I think the wild trout fishery would become nothing short of amazing.

 

[SteveG]

Yeah, I never understood what the point of making that classification was, if it's still allowed to be stocked anyway. Does that not defeat the purpose?

 

[TimRobinsin]

I figured you weren't going to let this one slide. I tried to pump the brakes a bit. Bit I am curious like everyone else. Is the PFBC ever going to give these wild fish a chance to show us what they can do if they are left to themselves?

 

[salmonoid]

SteveG wrote:
Yeah, I never understood what the point of making that classification was, if it's still allowed to be stocked anyway. Does that not defeat the purpose?

Class A makes the stream eligible for an upgrade in water quality classification and hence more environmental protection.

 

[TimRobinsin]

EV?

 

[salmonoid]

TimRobinsin wrote:
EV?

High Quality at minimum, Exceptional Value if a few more criteria are met.

§ 93.4b. Qualifying as High Quality or Exceptional Value Waters.

(a) Qualifying as a High Quality Water. A surface water that meets one or more of the following conditions is a High Quality Water.
(1) Chemistry.
(i) The water has long-term water quality, based on at least 1 year of data which exceeds levels necessary to support the propagation of fish, shellfish and wildlife and recreation in and on the water by being better than the water quality criteria in § 93.7, Table 3 (relating to specific water quality criteria) or otherwise authorized by § 93.8a(b) (relating to toxic substances), at least 99% of the time for the following parameters:

dissolved oxygen aluminum
iron dissolved nickel
dissolved copper dissolved cadmium
temperature pH
dissolved arsenic ammonia nitrogen
dissolved lead dissolved zinc
(ii) The Department may consider additional chemical and toxicity information, which characterizes or indicates the quality of a water, in making its determination.
(2) Biology. One or more of the following shall exist:
(i) Biological assessment qualifier.
(A) The surface water supports a high quality aquatic community based upon information gathered using peer-reviewed biological assessment procedures that consider physical habitat, benthic macroinvertebrates or fishes based on Rapid Bioassessment Protocols for Use in Streams and Rivers: Benthic Macroinvertebrates and Fish, Plafkin, et al., (EPA/444/4-89-001), as updated and amended. The surface water is compared to a reference stream or watershed, and an integrated benthic macroinvertebrate score of at least 83% shall be attained by the referenced stream or watershed.
(B) The surface water supports a high quality aquatic community based upon information gathered using other widely accepted and published peer-reviewed biological assessment procedures that the Department may approve to determine the condition of the aquatic community of a surface water.
(C) The Department may consider additional biological information which characterizes or indicates the quality of a water in making its determination.
(ii) Class A wild trout stream qualifier. The surface water has been designated a Class A wild trout stream by the Fish and Boat Commission following public notice and comment.
(b) Qualifying as an Exceptional Value Water. A surface water that meets one or more of the following conditions is an Exceptional Value Water:
(1) The water meets the requirements of subsection (a) and one or more of the following:
(i) The water is located in a National wildlife refuge or a State game propagation and protection area.
(ii) The water is located in a designated State park natural area or State forest natural area, National natural landmark, Federal or State wild river, Federal wilderness area or National recreational area.
(iii) The water is an outstanding National, State, regional or local resource water.
(iv) The water is a surface water of exceptional recreational significance.
(v) The water achieves a score of at least 92% (or its equivalent) using the methods and procedures described in subsection (a)(2)(i)(A) or (B).
(vi) The water is designated as a ‘‘wilderness trout stream’’ by the Fish and Boat Commission following public notice and comment.
(2) The water is a surface water of exceptional ecological significance.

 

[SteveG]

Not bashing you Salmonid, my question was rhetorical. Didn't the recent buffer law change still affect EV streams? If it's EV, it should actually be protected, e.g. no stocking over Class A populations, regs that protct that population because it does offer year round fishing opportunities (opportunity not being an entitlement to harvest).

Maybe that's why there is a backlog of the stream classification list.

 

[afishinado]

jifigz wrote:
So I was really happy to see that Kish in Mifflin County just had its Class A section expanded by several miles of stream length. That is great, great news as I feel that the Kish deserves that. However, what I am disappointed about, is that this new section of Class A water is still being stocked. I noticed they are stocking this section with only Rainbows now and no Browns, but still, I would like to see a cessation of stocking in this section. The section of the stream that has been designated Class A for years is not stocked and has been that way for as long as I've been interested in high quality cold water and trout. So, who do I send my concerns to? Sure, I could call around and get the runaround and maybe find a good target to send my concerns, but I'd like to no what avenue others have taken and gotten a good response from. I don't want to get generic answers and responses with my messages getting lost in the bureaucracy and having no real impact.

I actually would like to see that stream not stocked at all, but since it is our largest stream in the county and has a ton of access and great water, that will probably never happen.

It was voted on and approved in January:

Approved a proposal to continue stocking two streams in Clinton and Mifflin counties which are classified as Class A wild trout streams. The waters include Fishing Creek, Section 14, in Clinton County and Kishacoquillas Creek, Section 5, in Mifflin County. Both streams support high angler use for the stocked trout component of the fishery.

Link to source: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/news/2016pr/pfbc2016q1summ.htm

The policy of not stocked Class A's was changed to a policy where any Class A can be stocked (existing or new) with approval by the Commissioners. Pressure (an uproar) from advocates of stocking came because newly classified Class A's would no longer be stocked under the former policy. The compromise proposal of preseason stocking only for newly classified Class A's was rejected, so they threw out the baby with the bathwater and opened the possibility of stocking in all wild trout streams, Class A's included.

 

[jifigz]

afishinado wrote:

jifigz wrote:
So I was really happy to see that Kish in Mifflin County just had its Class A section expanded by several miles of stream length. That is great, great news as I feel that the Kish deserves that. However, what I am disappointed about, is that this new section of Class A water is still being stocked. I noticed they are stocking this section with only Rainbows now and no Browns, but still, I would like to see a cessation of stocking in this section. The section of the stream that has been designated Class A for years is not stocked and has been that way for as long as I've been interested in high quality cold water and trout. So, who do I send my concerns to? Sure, I could call around and get the runaround and maybe find a good target to send my concerns, but I'd like to no what avenue others have taken and gotten a good response from. I don't want to get generic answers and responses with my messages getting lost in the bureaucracy and having no real impact.

I actually would like to see that stream not stocked at all, but since it is our largest stream in the county and has a ton of access and great water, that will probably never happen.

It was voted on and approved in January:

Approved a proposal to continue stocking two streams in Clinton and Mifflin counties which are classified as Class A wild trout streams. The waters include Fishing Creek, Section 14, in Clinton County and Kishacoquillas Creek, Section 5, in Mifflin County. Both streams support high angler use for the stocked trout component of the fishery.

Link to source: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/news/2016pr/pfbc2016q1summ.htm

The policy of not stocked Class A's was changed to a policy where any Class A can be stocked (existing or new) with approval by the Commissioners. Pressure (an uproar) from advocates of stocking came because newly classified Class A's would no longer be stocked under the former policy. The compromise proposal of preseason stocking only for newly classified Class A's was rejected, so they threw out the baby with the bathwater and opened the possibility of stocking in all wild trout streams, Class A's included.

Kind of disappointing to say the least. That is going in the opposite direction of what I'd like to see. But, on the other hand, I doubt that will change much as many Class A streams are smaller and probably wouldn't draw much angler pressure if they were stocked. Many don't seem to appreciate smaller trout waters, at least people who love chasing stockies. I, for one, will fish and enjoy fishing anything big enough to land a fly in as long as there is wild trout in it.

 

[afishinado]

jifigz wrote:

Mike wrote:
My comment was generic in nature as it sounds like the characteristics of a stream that would receive high angler usage.

Given its size, it certainly receives heavy pressure for the crazy tagged fish tournament and the opening of the season. After a few weeks the pressure goes way, way, way down as is the case for most places around the state I'm guessing. My only prohelm with the heavy stockings on Kish is that it is a quality trout stream it's whole length and I feel, if managed properly, would flourish and be a top notch wild trout fishery. The stream has a good population of wild trout it's entire length. Even through the heavy stockings the stream maintains a very healthy population of wild browns. Imagine what it most likely could be though. A stream that size with lots of food for trout that maintains proper temps year round....I think the wild trout fishery would become nothing short of amazing.

I'm with you ^.

I find it goes into the category of "can't see the forest for the trees" when I see things published about high angler usage. What stream in the state has more usage than Spring Creek, as an example...and year round usage (way more than nearly every stocked stream which sees heavy angler usage for only a few weeks). BTW, Spring Creek was blessed with pollution that made the trout inedible in the early 80's and stocking ceased. The same with Valley Creek in the SE.

If streams already have a Class A population of trout, how many trout do you need in a stream? There are so many stream sections of ATW's (without wild trout) that are unstocked or under stocked in the State, why not shift stocking to other streams.

I believe it is unacceptable to stock streams with a high population wild trout. It's just wrong. We are blessed by having so many wild trout stream in this state. It is up to us, through the PFBC to do our best to take care of them.

We should rejoice because another stream or stream section has been reclaimed and now is a first class trout stream. Instead the commission has been dragging their feet on reclassification and in some cases, even surveying some streams. When a few streams are finally are reclassified, the policy changes to allow stocking to continue, even when it's neither necessary, nor desirable. "Resource First" should be a policy rather than just a nice sounding tagline.

The ironic thing is, the real draw for anglers are all the wild trout streams in the state. People travel to fish the Central and South Central wild trout streams, the Upper Delaware, etc. If more streams such as this can be created, there would be higher angler usage and higher angler satisfaction as well as more quality places to fish; ones that don't depend on the costly white truck for fish.

I understand why the PFBC does everything it can to appease and please the license buyers in order to survive since nearly all it's funding is based on or comes directly from license sales. But it can't go on and it may be time to bite the bullet and take the long view. Do more to foster self-sustaining fisheries and become less dependent on stocking, given the unsustainablity of meeting the ever-rising, never-ending costs of put and take.

My 2...

 

[troutbert]

jifigz,

Are you going to write letters about this?

 

[afishinado]

Here is a list of contacts:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/findyourlegislator/county_list.cfm?CNTYLIST=Mifflin

http://www.fishandboat.com/regcomments/

 

[SteveG]

Afish hit the nail on the head with his comments, specifically about Spring Creek. That waterway is a perfect example of a stream that gets true "high usage" (as opposed to the opening day carnival and the few weeks afterwards), and it's a great experience for all whom visit. To top it off, people travel quite a ways to fish it, and therefore support the local economy via food, lodging, etc purchases. Out of staters, they happily pay double the license fee.

Now, imagine if you have even more Class A streams with the same regs. Angler usage is evenly spread out, the experience is better for the angler, and the local economy benefits more.

Spring, Penns, etc are great streams. But there are many that have the ability to be nearly or just as good if given the chance.