TUrainbow88
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- Dec 23, 2011
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so whats the best tippet for Trout???
Carp???
Bass???
Carp???
Bass???
WildTigerTrout
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- Jun 19, 2010
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For trout I like Rio, "Powerflex" mono for drys and "Fluoroflex Plus" fluorocarbon for nymphing.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Depends in what your looking for! Like anything else, there's trade-offs. You narrowed it down by species. But even within that, for trout, are we talkin mountain stream brookies, flat water limestoners, or steelhead here?
Softer materials combat drag better. But they cast worse, soak up water more, and are often less abrasion resistant. They also tend to wind knot and twist more.
There's other trade offs too, like stretch. Stretch is often seen as bad, but in my experience, it's good, as it acts as a shock absorber when fighting big fish, as well as keeps me from oversetting the hook!
Soft vs. stiff is real easy to test. Get tippet from various brands. Mic it, don't trust the diameter on the spool. Cut off equal lengths at the same diameter from different brands. Clamp them in a vice at the same spot. Play and observe.
How "low" does it hang on it's own? Then start playing around with it. Compress it, push it to the sides, etc. There's bigger differences in stiffness than you would anticipate!
Personally, I like softer materials for most of my fishing. Drag is my #1 enemy. I'll take the trade offs to better handle that one. Rio Powerflex is very good, Rio Suppleflex, if you can find it, is a touch better. There is some overlap, but generally, copolymers are the softest, flourocarbons are stiffer, and straight (single strand) mono's are stiffer yet. Unfortunately, we have a tendency to call copolymers "mono".
That said, that's the business end. I like stiffer materials for the butt section of my leaders. Maxima Chameleon is about as stiff as they get, a single strand mono. And to ease the transition between stiff and soft, it's good to have a length or two of a tweener in the mid section of the leader.
Softer materials combat drag better. But they cast worse, soak up water more, and are often less abrasion resistant. They also tend to wind knot and twist more.
There's other trade offs too, like stretch. Stretch is often seen as bad, but in my experience, it's good, as it acts as a shock absorber when fighting big fish, as well as keeps me from oversetting the hook!
Soft vs. stiff is real easy to test. Get tippet from various brands. Mic it, don't trust the diameter on the spool. Cut off equal lengths at the same diameter from different brands. Clamp them in a vice at the same spot. Play and observe.
How "low" does it hang on it's own? Then start playing around with it. Compress it, push it to the sides, etc. There's bigger differences in stiffness than you would anticipate!
Personally, I like softer materials for most of my fishing. Drag is my #1 enemy. I'll take the trade offs to better handle that one. Rio Powerflex is very good, Rio Suppleflex, if you can find it, is a touch better. There is some overlap, but generally, copolymers are the softest, flourocarbons are stiffer, and straight (single strand) mono's are stiffer yet. Unfortunately, we have a tendency to call copolymers "mono".
That said, that's the business end. I like stiffer materials for the butt section of my leaders. Maxima Chameleon is about as stiff as they get, a single strand mono. And to ease the transition between stiff and soft, it's good to have a length or two of a tweener in the mid section of the leader.
Wetfly01
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- Sep 16, 2011
- Messages
- 227
Fishing for trout IMO Frog Hair tippet material either in mono or fluorocarbon works the best for me and believe me I have tried them all over the years. The fluorocarbon definitely has the best abrasion resistance, knot strength of any other materials I've used.
R
RLeeP
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- Sep 18, 2006
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- 800
Choosing the right tippet can involve as rigorous and methodical of a process as Pat describes or it can be as subjective and whimsical as the preference of the guy who likes red cars better than blue ones because with red cars you can go an extra 1,000 miles between oil changes....
Both paths more often than not lead to the same destination. My guess is that this is true mostly because once you get past the stiff/soft thing to the top tier of brand choices (the half dozen or so brands that dominate the market), the perceived differences are probably a bit more about religion than actual differences in quality. Rio, Umpqua, SA, Orvis, Frog Hair, etc., they're all good.
I started out fishing Nylorfi (1970's Cortland brand) and thought it was the best stuff ever for a long time. Somewhere in there was this stuff called Aeon which to this day, I don't think has been equaled for uselessness. Simply awful. Then, when it came out, I started fishing Orvis SS and knew in my heart of hearts that this was the stuff I would fish for the rest of my life. Until I bought a couple spools of Rio Powerflex and wondered how I ever thought SS was worth anything. Then we were in the UP a couple years ago and I needed to pick a shop owner's brain about the best sections of a particular stream. I don't ask for information unless I buy something. He handled Umpqua, so I bought a couple spools of it, even though I had enough Powerflex in my vest and gear bag to consider listing it in our wills. Near as I can tell, it is as good as Powerflex.
I thought I was done moving like a fickle vagabond from brand to brand. But then, last year, I happened upon this stuff: http://www.trouthunt.com/estore/details/23983 I really, really like it and am pretty sure that this is what I'll be fishing for the rest of my life. Or at least until the next stuff to strike my fancy comes along...
As Pat sort of said, pay attention to the composition of your butt and transitional sections. What you use for these can make real and easily apparent differences in how your leader performs. But when it comes to tippet selection for general use, I'm pretty much convinced you can throw all the brands that sell for $4.25 a spool or more into a paper bag, shake it up and pick one and you'll have the stuff you'll be fishing for the rest of your life...
Both paths more often than not lead to the same destination. My guess is that this is true mostly because once you get past the stiff/soft thing to the top tier of brand choices (the half dozen or so brands that dominate the market), the perceived differences are probably a bit more about religion than actual differences in quality. Rio, Umpqua, SA, Orvis, Frog Hair, etc., they're all good.
I started out fishing Nylorfi (1970's Cortland brand) and thought it was the best stuff ever for a long time. Somewhere in there was this stuff called Aeon which to this day, I don't think has been equaled for uselessness. Simply awful. Then, when it came out, I started fishing Orvis SS and knew in my heart of hearts that this was the stuff I would fish for the rest of my life. Until I bought a couple spools of Rio Powerflex and wondered how I ever thought SS was worth anything. Then we were in the UP a couple years ago and I needed to pick a shop owner's brain about the best sections of a particular stream. I don't ask for information unless I buy something. He handled Umpqua, so I bought a couple spools of it, even though I had enough Powerflex in my vest and gear bag to consider listing it in our wills. Near as I can tell, it is as good as Powerflex.
I thought I was done moving like a fickle vagabond from brand to brand. But then, last year, I happened upon this stuff: http://www.trouthunt.com/estore/details/23983 I really, really like it and am pretty sure that this is what I'll be fishing for the rest of my life. Or at least until the next stuff to strike my fancy comes along...
As Pat sort of said, pay attention to the composition of your butt and transitional sections. What you use for these can make real and easily apparent differences in how your leader performs. But when it comes to tippet selection for general use, I'm pretty much convinced you can throw all the brands that sell for $4.25 a spool or more into a paper bag, shake it up and pick one and you'll have the stuff you'll be fishing for the rest of your life...
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Nylorfi, now THERE'S a blast from the past! How about Pezon et Michel or the old Orvis green? ;-)
You'll probably get 50 different responses to this question which means they are all good. In my world other than Rio Fluoroflex Plus which I didn't like, I have been pretty lucky with tippet material; every brand I've tried has been very good IMHO. In the past I used nothing but Orvis Super Strong mono until I switched to fluoro.
The four reasons I switched to fluorocarbon:
1. I had been using fluorocarbon on my conventional rods and was pleased with the performance upgrade over mono.
2. I don't like shiny tippets and mono is typically very shiny. Certain brands of fluoro, especially Varivas (which I loved but it became impossible to find) got dull after fishing it awhile. The original "Orvis Mud" worked great to get rid of the shine but they reformulated it so I stopped using it. It looks like they reformulated it again so I may have to revisit, but in the mean time I'm too lazy to use real mud or something else to make them dull.
3. Fluoro sinks and I want my tippet to sink even when fishing tiny dries because I think a sub surface tippet is less visible even if the trout don't believe me. The Orvis Mud helped in this regard but...(see #1 above). FWIW - I have no issues with my dry fly getting pulled under or other fluoro half truths.
4. Fluoro doesn’t get flattened with the resultant "curly cues" as badly when it gets pulled across something hard, like when it gets tangled in a branch or around my rod. I know, "stay out of the trees".
So these days I use fluoro exclusively for trout fishing and settled on Seaguar because it is the strongest stuff I ever used and I use a lot 7X & 8X. Because of its strength and my confidence, I can horse in my fish like I was using 5X which cuts the fight time down to seconds. The bad part is, it is REALLY expensive but I get mine at Cabela's with Cabela's points. My second favorite is Orvis Mirage which is equally as good and a WAY better value but not available at Cabela's or in 8X.
For bass I use mostly mono because I like Maxima Chameleon and Super Strong in the heavier sizes I prefer. I guess all of the same reasons I use fluoro for trout would apply to bass but I'd rather spend my money on whiskey. For carp (IF I could figure out how to catch one) I'd be inclined to use the same thing.
Have fun choosing!!
You'll probably get 50 different responses to this question which means they are all good. In my world other than Rio Fluoroflex Plus which I didn't like, I have been pretty lucky with tippet material; every brand I've tried has been very good IMHO. In the past I used nothing but Orvis Super Strong mono until I switched to fluoro.
The four reasons I switched to fluorocarbon:
1. I had been using fluorocarbon on my conventional rods and was pleased with the performance upgrade over mono.
2. I don't like shiny tippets and mono is typically very shiny. Certain brands of fluoro, especially Varivas (which I loved but it became impossible to find) got dull after fishing it awhile. The original "Orvis Mud" worked great to get rid of the shine but they reformulated it so I stopped using it. It looks like they reformulated it again so I may have to revisit, but in the mean time I'm too lazy to use real mud or something else to make them dull.
3. Fluoro sinks and I want my tippet to sink even when fishing tiny dries because I think a sub surface tippet is less visible even if the trout don't believe me. The Orvis Mud helped in this regard but...(see #1 above). FWIW - I have no issues with my dry fly getting pulled under or other fluoro half truths.
4. Fluoro doesn’t get flattened with the resultant "curly cues" as badly when it gets pulled across something hard, like when it gets tangled in a branch or around my rod. I know, "stay out of the trees".
So these days I use fluoro exclusively for trout fishing and settled on Seaguar because it is the strongest stuff I ever used and I use a lot 7X & 8X. Because of its strength and my confidence, I can horse in my fish like I was using 5X which cuts the fight time down to seconds. The bad part is, it is REALLY expensive but I get mine at Cabela's with Cabela's points. My second favorite is Orvis Mirage which is equally as good and a WAY better value but not available at Cabela's or in 8X.
For bass I use mostly mono because I like Maxima Chameleon and Super Strong in the heavier sizes I prefer. I guess all of the same reasons I use fluoro for trout would apply to bass but I'd rather spend my money on whiskey. For carp (IF I could figure out how to catch one) I'd be inclined to use the same thing.
Have fun choosing!!
Foxgap239
Active member
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- Jun 29, 2011
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- 2,101
I swear I have a couple of spools of Orvis 8X fluoro and I thought it was Mirage. I guess have to check when I get home.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Bamboozle,
Interesting on the fluoro for tiny dries. I'm sure this is very debatable, and unfortunately we can't just ask a fish. But personally, I have never felt fish were line shy, but rather, drag shy. Fluoro does sink, and thus interacts with the water more, and thus tends to lead to more drag. Further, it's a little stiffer, which also leads to more drag. On top of all of that, the stretch of mono helps protect small tippets. Tiny dries is where I see mono as having it's biggest advantage.
I've always seen the possible benefits of fluoro for nymphing. It certainly has better abrasion resistance and thus weakens less when rubbing against rocks and so forth. It also twists less, and makes better knots. And the lack of stretch leads to more sensitivity when detecting strikes. The only disadvantage of it in nymphing is that it's so slick that shot don't tend to stay put, for me anyway.
Interesting on the fluoro for tiny dries. I'm sure this is very debatable, and unfortunately we can't just ask a fish. But personally, I have never felt fish were line shy, but rather, drag shy. Fluoro does sink, and thus interacts with the water more, and thus tends to lead to more drag. Further, it's a little stiffer, which also leads to more drag. On top of all of that, the stretch of mono helps protect small tippets. Tiny dries is where I see mono as having it's biggest advantage.
I've always seen the possible benefits of fluoro for nymphing. It certainly has better abrasion resistance and thus weakens less when rubbing against rocks and so forth. It also twists less, and makes better knots. And the lack of stretch leads to more sensitivity when detecting strikes. The only disadvantage of it in nymphing is that it's so slick that shot don't tend to stay put, for me anyway.
Foxgap239
Active member
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- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,101
I would agree with PCray here. I purchased fluoro only to use for nymphing. One evening I went from nymphing to dries because the fish started to come up. I had limited success catching fish I'd normally catch. I got frustrated because my fly kept sinking. It wasn't until I was driving home that I remembered that I never removed the fluoro before tying on the dry. Just my little story.
On the flip side, I noticed I have been getting more strikes using fluoro to nymph, right to PCray point about stretch but of course, I never realized why I was getting more strikes until reading above. Sometimes I analyze too much and other times I don't analyze until the ride home when it is obviously too late for that evening!
Sigh.............
On the flip side, I noticed I have been getting more strikes using fluoro to nymph, right to PCray point about stretch but of course, I never realized why I was getting more strikes until reading above. Sometimes I analyze too much and other times I don't analyze until the ride home when it is obviously too late for that evening!
Sigh.............
D
dryflyguy
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- Sep 21, 2006
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- 6,147
Have always liked orvis SS. However I really haven't tried anything new lately - maybe I should
Bamboozle
Well-known member
I can't and won't argue with anyone's results but I use fluoro with Tricos and miniscule midges all the time with NO sinking fly problems. FWIW - I use Frog Fanny (or reasonable facimile) on my dries. IF I felt it was a problem, greasing the tippet is an option which I do on broken water to facilitate pick-up.
In regards to fluoro induced drag, my leader is slack by virtue of construction and the way I present the fly so I never found stiffness, (BTW Seaguar is very supple) to be an issue. I also trout fish with rods that most would consider medium to slow. These rods and a long leader do a LOT to help cushion the sudden surge of a fish and help me to present a cast that has slack. In other words my rod provides the stretch.
When a line or leader floats on the film, it looks like the edge of a knife cutting through mercury and is pretty visible. Check it out with a mirror in the bottom of tank of water or in a slant tank. When it is just below, I find it less visible but of course I’m not a trout. Even in my mono days I always treated my tippet to make it sink, especially with fussy fish and I feel it makes a difference for ME. Now of course there are those moron trout that could care less but let’s face it, we all believe whatever offers us the best excuse for our own inadequacies.
Finally, while I have no argument with contrary opinions and only have minor issues with mono and would have no problem using it; I'm just too lazy to bother carrying around both. If a particular trout flips me off when I use fluoro, I'll just find a dopey one further upstream. It’s a lot easier than switching tippets. ;-)
In regards to fluoro induced drag, my leader is slack by virtue of construction and the way I present the fly so I never found stiffness, (BTW Seaguar is very supple) to be an issue. I also trout fish with rods that most would consider medium to slow. These rods and a long leader do a LOT to help cushion the sudden surge of a fish and help me to present a cast that has slack. In other words my rod provides the stretch.
When a line or leader floats on the film, it looks like the edge of a knife cutting through mercury and is pretty visible. Check it out with a mirror in the bottom of tank of water or in a slant tank. When it is just below, I find it less visible but of course I’m not a trout. Even in my mono days I always treated my tippet to make it sink, especially with fussy fish and I feel it makes a difference for ME. Now of course there are those moron trout that could care less but let’s face it, we all believe whatever offers us the best excuse for our own inadequacies.
Finally, while I have no argument with contrary opinions and only have minor issues with mono and would have no problem using it; I'm just too lazy to bother carrying around both. If a particular trout flips me off when I use fluoro, I'll just find a dopey one further upstream. It’s a lot easier than switching tippets. ;-)
pcray1231
Well-known member
haha, fair enough. If you are who I think you are, I commonly use one of YOUR rods, so.... I love it by the way!
Yeah, I never had actual fly sinking problems with fluoro and dries, the difference in density is minute enough that it's overshadowed by the flotation of the fly. Just micro-drag, if that line grabs a little more water it acts more like there's line there.
I'll have to try the slant tank and visibility on the surface. I've compared mono and flouro in fish tanks, submerged, looking for the coefficient of refraction difference thing. Frankly, I don't see any difference! Still, I just still don't think fish are line shy. If you glue 2 inches of 0x tippet to a live trico, and throw it out there, the fish gobble it down just fine. But try to fish a trico with 0x tippet and the drag is impossible and fish won't take.
I do agree that, of the flouro's, Seaguar is the most supple I've found. It still ranks behind a number of different mono's in that category.
Yeah, I never had actual fly sinking problems with fluoro and dries, the difference in density is minute enough that it's overshadowed by the flotation of the fly. Just micro-drag, if that line grabs a little more water it acts more like there's line there.
I'll have to try the slant tank and visibility on the surface. I've compared mono and flouro in fish tanks, submerged, looking for the coefficient of refraction difference thing. Frankly, I don't see any difference! Still, I just still don't think fish are line shy. If you glue 2 inches of 0x tippet to a live trico, and throw it out there, the fish gobble it down just fine. But try to fish a trico with 0x tippet and the drag is impossible and fish won't take.
I do agree that, of the flouro's, Seaguar is the most supple I've found. It still ranks behind a number of different mono's in that category.
