What is WV doing that PA ain’t ?

[silverfox]

My take is that they have staff dedicated to native brook trout. I believe this is one of the reasons MD has done so much for brook trout as well. They have staff positions that are devoted to the species. Pennsylvania does not. It's worth mentioning that in Maryland, their budget and staff size is a fraction of PA's. How Pennsylvania doesn't have a brook trout specialist is mind-boggling.

I think The_Sasquatch is correct about the effort being localized in small areas. There's nothing wrong with that. What WV has done is established conservation watersheds for brook trout. They also have a conservation hatchery where they're working with wild fish broodstock to get hatchlings to repopulate extirpated streams. It's not to say that the entire state is a brook trout mecca and conservation zone and they do everything right from Charleston to PawPaw. Outside of those conservation watersheds, they're doing the same things as PA.

The thing is, there's nothing wrong with that, either. That's all we want to see in PA. You don't need to eradicate nonnative fish, stop stocking, make brookies C&R across the entire commonwealth, fix every perched culvert in the state, drop four million trees in the water, etc. to help brook trout. Just focus on strongholds and do meaningful things there. We have the maps that tell us where that is.

A targeted approach gives the appearance that the state is doing a lot for the species even if 90% of the state isn't managed the same way. It's worth mentioning, too that some of the issues Sasquatch mentions are the responsibility of the EPA, not WV DNR. The stocking practices are obviously all on DNR, but again, they've established entire large watersheds where they've suspended all those shenanigans for brook trout. Pennsylvania hasn't.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea not only do they have dedicated brook trout staff but silver-fox brought up in the past all other states have Department of Natural Resources (DNR’s) or Department of environmental conservation (DEC’s) we have DCNR that is only responsible for state parks and despite their stated effort to maintain native species in their state parks, our PA fish and boat(Not DNR or DEC) basically has the power to stock in DCNR lands and Allegheny National forest and those agencies can’t kick them out very easily I understand. Why did they get conservation organizations managing both conservation and fishing and we get “PA sell fishing Fishing licenses and boat” that seems to overrule our DCNR. I realize states do alot of the dame things pafb and dcnr do within one one agency but it in PA there is just such a monumental come h*** or high water stock everything all the time hatchery program that takes up an enormously disproportionate amount of money and staff to what their responsible for resource wise.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea not only do they have dedicated brook trout staff but silver-fox brought up in the past all other states have Department of Natural Resources (DNR’s) or Department of environmental conservation (DEC’s) we have DCNR that is only responsible for state parks and despite their stated effort to maintain native species in their state parks, our PA fish and boat(Not DNR or DEC) basically has the power to stock in DCNR lands and Allegheny National forest and those agencies can’t kick them out very easily I understand. Why did they get conservation organizations managing both conservation and fishing and we get “PA sell fishing Fishing licenses and boat” that seems to overrule our DCNR. I realize states do alot of the dame things pafb and dcnr do within one one agency but it in PA there is just such a monumental come h*** or high water stock everything all the time hatchery program that takes up an enormously disproportionate amount of money and staff to what their responsible for resource wise.

i love that pa fish and boat came out eith a statement saying something along the lines of “resource first does not mean wild native brook trout first or we wont stocknover them” shows they see they are the problem and that people are making fun of them

 

[troutbert]

...we have DCNR that is only responsible for state parks...

DCNR also manages the state forest land, through their Bureau of Forestry. This acreage is very large, much larger than the state park acreage.

 

[Fish Sticks]

DCNR also manages the state forest land, through their Bureau of Forestry. This acreage is very large, much larger than the state park acreage.

Yea i forgot to include that too but the point is on any of them, Forests or park, PFBC has free reign to stock as of now DCNR cannot stop the onslaught of white trucks full of stocked invasive species at this point it is my understanding.

 

[silverfox]

It's also illegal to introduce/release non-native species on DCNR-managed property to protect native species biodiversity. Go figure.

 

[Fish Sticks]

It's also illegal to introduce/release non-native species on DCNR-managed property to protect native species biodiversity. Go figure.

Unless your PA sell fishing licenses at all cost and boat.

Then you can take invasive trout that might have swallowed an invasive New Zealand mudsnail from this benner spring and pleasant gap hatchery outbreak and stock the invasive species that might then poop out another invasive species that only needs one snail to reproduce by the way. Makes sense. Resource first. Maybe the commission will come out with another resource first clarification statement like the one I came up with that summarizes their actions.

“ Resource first does not mean we actually prioritize not spreading aquatic invasive species, it means we tell YOU not to do that…….but we do it……..LIKE A LOT”

I think reading these resource first clarification statements online on their website is the highlight of my day.

Next it will be

“Resource first does not actually mean resource first”

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Just an example. Here's our DNR's website on native brook trout. One pic is a guy lipping a brown trout, another is a native brookie laying on dry ground...

 

[pcray1231]

Here's our DNR's website on native brook trout. One pic is a guy lipping a brown trout,

That's actually hilarious....

 

[silverfox]

To be fair, this is also your DNR website. Show me anything similar on the PFBC website.

WVDNR project to restore native brook trout population continues - WVDNR

Efforts to restore native brook trout in the Mountain State continue and fisheries biologists for the West Virginia Division of Natural Resources recently surveyed a trout stream in Tucker County to see if the project is showing signs of success.

wvdnr.gov

 

[Fish Sticks]

Just an example. Here's our DNR's website on native brook trout. One pic is a guy lipping a brown trout, another is a native brookie laying on dry ground...

Yea i think silver fox and I were discussing that lipping pick recently lol one of the biologists may have said something like some intern or non fish web person might selected that there was a social media buzz over that.

The funny thing is PA fish and Boat could never be put in that position because they don’t even post about our wild native brook trout or aknowledge they exist because managment for them in Pa is such a sore subject for them at the agency I would guess. They even changed their logo fish from a brook trout a while back to a mystery trout.

V
V
V
V
V
V

When your the regional fisheries management pariah and even the states doing ALOT of stuff wrong look at your state and go “yikes thats what they do in PA with native brook trout?!?” It doesn’t exactly create The psychology at PA fish and Boat that says lets educate people that brook trout are our state fish and tell them how important they are as a native keystone species to aquatic and terrestrial ecosystems because the logical step is then, well why aren’t you listening to fisheries scientists or the EBTJV in even just one watershed in this state that could be set aside, ONE.

Instead PAFB as a whole leadership wise (not individual staff) rather you forget native brook trout exist and just stock as long as they can get away with.

 

[Fish Sticks]

WhoA whoa whoa!!!!! slow down there silver fox I think posting that WV video is a little unfair to Pa fish and boat. They have “conservation” videos to educate the public too ya know.

 

[silverfox]

Yea i think silver fox and I were discussing that lipping pick recently lol one of the biologists may have said something like some intern or non fish web person might selected that there was a social media buzz over that.

The funny thing is PA fish and Boat could never be put in that position because they don’t even post about our wild native brook trout or aknowledge they exist because managment for them in Pa is such a sore subject for them at the agency I would guess. They even changed their logo fish from a brook trout a while back to a mystery trout.
View attachment 1641227643

V
V
V
V
V
V
View attachment 1641227644

When your the regional fisheries management pariah and even the states doing ALOT of stuff wrong look at your state and go “yikes thats what they do in PA with native brook trout?!?” It doesn’t exactly create The psychology at PA fish and Boat that says lets educate people that brook trout are our state fish and tell them how important they are as a native keystone species to aquatic and terrestrial ecosystems because the logical step is then, well why aren’t you listening to fisheries scientists or the EBTJV in even just one watershed in this state that could be set aside, ONE.

Instead PAFB as a whole leadership wise (not individual staff) rather you forget native brook trout exist and just stock as long as they can get away with.

To be fair, the yellow trout is a better representation of priorities.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The way they promote it and take school children on tours of the hatchery where those creamsicle colored freaks are grown would suggest to the general public that its some majestic native species that has a conservation need instead of just a mutant skid mark in the underpants of nature created by man kind. Its a novelty that wares off immediately once you learn the truth and see it wild places. Its a living breathing party favor designed to sell licenses, PA fish and boats top priority by far. A Happy Meal Toy for the angling public to reinforce the idea that all fish come from mother fish and boat and what nature produces must just be inadequate. its presence in a trout stream with wild fish native fish sucks the wonder and feel of remoteness out of the stream your fishing. You know someone has littered in it near by and your waiting for a bald eagle to see the fish glowing from 2000 feet up and take out the trash.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

To be fair, this is also your DNR website. Show me anything similar on the PFBC website.

WVDNR project to restore native brook trout population continues - WVDNR

Efforts to restore native brook trout in the Mountain State continue and fisheries biologists for the West Virginia Division of Natural Resources recently surveyed a trout stream in Tucker County to see if the project is showing signs of success.

wvdnr.gov

Right. It shows you how double-minded this state is. I'm glad Tucker County gets all this attention. There are 54 others that sure could use this kind of effort.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

I mean, I don't mean to sound ungrateful for something like that existing on the WV DNR website. And I get it, PA has nothing like that. I just know, from being a resident and fisherman in both states, the OVERALL condition of native brook trout waters is far better in PA than WV. Tucker Co. is an anomaly-for both states. Far from the norm. Brookies are found in far more waters, and much more widely distributed in PA, despite the fact that almost every area in WV has those little mountain streams all over the place.

 

[silverfox]

I mean, I don't mean to sound ungrateful for something like that existing on the WV DNR website. And I get it, PA has nothing like that. I just know, from being a resident and fisherman in both states, the OVERALL condition of native brook trout waters is far better in PA than WV. Tucker Co. is an anomaly-for both states. Far from the norm. Brookies are found in far more waters, and much more widely distributed in PA, despite the fact that almost every area in WV has those little mountain streams all over the place.

It's worth mentioning that WV never had the brook trout distribution that PA does. It's unknown whether the species existed west of the blue ridge mountains in the Allegheny plateau. So brook trout are, and always were, confined to the blue ridge mountains on the extreme eastern edge of the state. Roughly 15% of the state's landmass? That eastern edge also has a higher elevation than PA (thermally insulated), and it's coincidentally the highest concentration of coal in the state. So within the limited range, they faced significant impacts from natural resource extraction, and they're still widely distributed along that corridor.

So you're correct that statewide, PA has more brook trout than WV. We always have.

Beyond the reclamation/reintroduction in Tucker Co, you also have the Middle Fork of Williams River and tributaries in Webster and Pocahontas Counties, Tea Creek upstream of the Tea Creek Campground and its tributaries in Pocahontas County, Red Creek upstream of the County Route 45 Bridge and its tributaries in Tucker County, and Otter Creek and tributaries in Randolph and Tucker Counties as brook trout "preserves." Again, PA doesn't have a single watershed managed specifically for brook trout comparable to those watersheds, and WV has four.

 

[krayfish2]

If it is a decent size watershed that contains feeders with existing brook populations...why not the kettle drainage? Cease stocking, continue to improve habitat, protect from harvest and come back in 5 years to thoroughly sample all streams and document the success or failure for the project.

 

[wildtrout2]

If it is a decent size watershed that contains feeders with existing brook populations...why not the kettle drainage? Cease stocking, continue to improve habitat, protect from harvest and come back in 5 years to thoroughly sample all streams and document the success or failure for the project.

Swattie had suggested this a while back. It's the best candidate that I can think of. Plenty of tribs to help the situation, and they would benefit as well.

 

[pcray1231]

Yes, it's been mentioned by multiple people throughout the thread as the best candidate. You got the dam at Ole Bull as your barrier, everything upstream of that could be the project.