Trout Stocking Question

[MathFish]

Firstly, I’m hoping that this thread doesn’t morph into a Coronavirus discussion, but it seems like that virus is able to not just infect people’s respiratory systems and but it is seemingly able to infect fishing forums too! (I say that as a joke - so calm down...)

Secondly, I do appreciate wild trout and wild trout streams just like the majority of us on this site, so I’m not advocating for stocking more trout over wild fish habitat, nor am I advocating for any additional stocking whatsoever when I ask this question below. (So again, remain calm everybody...)

Is there a reason that Cutthroat trout don’t get stocked in PA waters? I was watching a video on fly fishing different countries in Europe and the people were catching brookies, rainbows and browns. I have come to learn that brown trout are native to Europe and Western Asia, brook trout to Eastern America and rainbow trout to the Pacific North West. So all of these species have been supplanted world wide, but I’ve only ever heard about cutthroats existence in the western US. Do cutthroats get stocked elsewhere in the world? Have they ever been considered to be stocked in PA?

I do think it makes a cutthroat a bit more special of a catch if you are only able to catch them where they are native to, but I think it’s interesting that this trout species hasn’t made the world tour like the other three have. And, I’m asking this merely out of curiosity and for an opportunity to discuss something other than the pandemic.

 

[Dave_W]

MathFish wrote:
Is there a reason that Cutthroat trout don’t get stocked in PA waters? Do cutthroats get stocked elsewhere in the world? Have they ever been considered to be stocked in PA?

Maryland had a cutthroat fingerling program on the North Branch of the Potomac a few years ago. There were some pics of cuts posted here on PAFF awhile back.

I've lost touch with MD's programs in recent years so I don't know if the cuttie program is still extant (I don't think so).
Hopefully, some of our MD folks will chime in.

 

[ColdBore]

Two possible reasons come to mind...

First, they tend to be smaller than our other trout. Knowing that fishermen have a natural attraction to larger fish, the various agencies responsible for breeding, raising, and stocking fish, possibly bypassed them to concentrate on the larger species.

Second, introducing non-native fish isn't as popular as it once was, and tends to be looked down upon in today's world.

Combine the two reasons above, and it may form a mixture of possibilities. In the early days, they weren't stocked due to being of smaller average size. Then by the time that they became popular, and possibly might have been considered for stocking programs around here, attitudes about artificially expanding their range had taken hold.

All of that is purely speculation on my part, but it's as good as I've got right now.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

Pa . and NY stocked Splake Trout years back. Like Palomino and Golden Trout they seemed to me to be an "entertainment" fish. Just something unusual to brag on ? GG

 

[RLeep2]

Well, for one thing, Pennsylvania's stupid trout slot is already occupied and spoke for by our indigenous native...

J/K...

I don't really know enough about it to have a worthwhile opinion, but I wonder if the cutt's proclivity to hybridize with RT might be part of the reason. It could be possible that this might cause them to be viewed less favorably by the hatchery management folks.

Just a guess, FWIW.

 

[lestrout]

Yo Math - decades ago Valley Forge TU put some Vibert boxes with cutt eggs in the headwaters of West Valley Creek. I believe the eggs did hatch, but no one found any little cutts swimming around afterwards. I wonder how their biology works. Do cutts need high altitude to thrive? (but I do know sea run cutts do well in Puget Sound, which is sea level).

 

[wbranch]

Well, for one thing, Pennsylvania's stupid trout slot is already occupied and spoke for by our indigenous native...

Cutthroat are the stupid member of the trout family. They are tend to hybridize with pure rainbows and the result is the "cutbow". I have caught hundreds of wild/native cutthroat in YNP and in Montana. Only the really larger specimens of 17" - 22" put up a decent fight but it is not at all like the strength of a brown and the jumps of a rainbow. Just strong pulling.

I have experienced many instances where I cast a dry fly to a cuttie and he rose and I missed it, and missed it again, and again, only to finally hook that fish after it rose four times to the same fly. I truly hope PFBC in it's infinite wisdom doesn't consider stocking them. We already have enough atypical trout species with the golden rainbow aka palomino and the occasional tiger trout. Why bring in another invasive species? They are a western species. Let's leave them there.

 

[Jessed]

How about the coho salmon the sportsman club use to put in Chester creek. Insane

 

[ryansheehan]

I catch them on the Savage and North Branch. They suspended stocking for a while due to very low survival rates but I believe they started again

 

[MathFish]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

Those are some interesting theories Coldbore. I think that you might be onto something with the notion that transplanting species into new environments is not too fashionable these days.

The notion of putting Cohos in a PA stream does seem pretty nuts. And I have never heard of a spalls trout. In the image searches i did, they seem to look a lot like a brook trout. And it sounds like they are from crossing a brook trout and lake trout. I guess the term “splake” is from “speckled” and “lake” trout.

And Ryan that’s interesting that Maryland has stocked cutthroat and PA hasn’t being that we border one another... that has to be neat to catch one of them every now and again. That mark on its throat is so vibrant in that photo! Thanks for sharing.

 

[PennKev]

They do poorly when found in the wild with all three of the wild species we currently have so trying to start up wild populations doesn't have much promise.

As for put-and-take... They aren't widely available from hatcheries and PA already has three species being produced that originate from stock that has been bred for hatchery production for decades. I'm not sure that there are any hatchery strains of cutthroats available anywhere that are suitable for economical large scale production. If that's the case I can't see the state using hatchery capacity for a species that will not produce size and numbers similar to the current three species.

 

[ryansheehan]

I think the main reason you see states avoid cutthroats is the temperature issue. Water temps in the upper 60's are lethal and they begin to stress and eat less at 59. The North Branch has some seriously cold water year round.

 

[wbranch]

Pennkev wrote;

They do poorly when found in the wild with all three of the wil

Cutthroat thrive in really cold, clear, and pollution free ecosystems. The Yellowstone River in YNP above the big waterfall is (was?) 100% cutthroat only. I don't know if it is now because I have not fished there in 25 years. I would venture to say though I'd bet it still is cutthroat only from the outlet of Yellowstone Lake to the huge impassable waterfalls.

At one time the lake was 100% native cuttthroat but somehow, probably through illegal plantings lake trout got into the lake. It is virtually impossible to eradicate the laker even though many attempts have been made to net them out.

https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/lake-trout.htm

 

[ryansheehan]

As a side note that fish was caught in 2014, five years after they discontinued stocking(until 2018) so obviously some survived and spawned.

 

[SmoothOperator]

wbranch wrote:
Pennkev wrote;

They do poorly when found in the wild with all three of the wil

Cutthroat thrive in really cold, clear, and pollution free ecosystems. The Yellowstone River in YNP above the big waterfall is (was?) 100% cutthroat only. I don't know if it is now because I have not fished there in 25 years. I would venture to say though I'd bet it still is cutthroat only from the outlet of Yellowstone Lake to the huge impassable waterfalls.

At one time the lake was 100% native cuttthroat but somehow, probably through illegal plantings lake trout got into the lake. It is virtually impossible to eradicate the laker even though many attempts have been made to net them out.

https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/lake-trout.htm

That strain of cutthroat is deferent from the popular West Slope strain......The strain in the upper Yellowstone ( Falls to Lake) rises readily to dries also but when hooked heads straight to the bottom and just hangs there.......Until it tires and you can bring it in.......( reminds me of giant carp)....

 

[MathFish]

Sounds like the temperature factor is probably the reason. I had no idea that they needed such colder water temps. Thanks.

 

[troutbert]

MathFish wrote:
Sounds like the temperature factor is probably the reason. I had no idea that they needed such colder water temps. Thanks.

There are cutthroat that live in quite warm waters in the desert areas of the west. Waters that go over 70F. So temperature probably has nothing to do with it.

PA could raise cutthroats in the hatcheries and stock them. But have chosen not to. Good choice IMHO.

I love fishing for wild cutts in the west.

But I would not want to fish for hatchery cutts.

 

[wbranch]

There is a meadow stream in YNP called Pelican Creek. It is no longer open to fishing. However back when I was a young fellow it was open. I used to spend June, July, and August in Montana fishing the spring creeks in Paradise Valley. For a diversion once in awhile I would drive into YNP and camp there a few days. I'd walk into the first meadow of Pelican with just a spool of 4X and little box of some nymphs and dries.

During the course of an afternoon it was easy to land fifty cutthroat. All 13" - 17" with an occasional 18". Many of the fish were post spawn but others were pre spawn and still fat and very aggressive and fought quite well. I'd been told that if I would be willing to walk up into the 2nd and 3rd meadows the fish were as plentiful and bigger. I was never inclined to do that because I was, and still am, very fearful of grizzlies. I figured the further in I walked the longer it would take me to get out towards evening. So I was very content to be only about two miles from the trail head.

 

[D-nymph]

I caught a big cut-bow in the Yough, 2 years ago last week. I have pics but no way to upload at the moment.

 

[Dave_W]

It's been awhile since we've had this discussion around here...

Since we're on the topic of cutthroats - it might be a good time to emphasize once again that just because a rainbow trout has a red or orange chin stripe does not mean it is a cut-bow or that it has cutthroat genes.

Orange or red chin stripes are not uncommon on rainbows in PA.