Today's Creexperiment

[jeffroey]

The car was all packed up last night with plans to head a couple of hours north on my day off today to explore two brookie streams I haven't fished before. With all the rain the past few days, I've been on the fence about investing the time and this morning - more because of wind than water conditions for the streams I was targeting - I waved off and will consider making the trip on Sunday. I just don't like fishing on the weekends . . .

With that as the backdrop, I found myself at my local fly shop picking up a few small odds and ends: a couple of spools of thread, a package of stripped/dyed quills, some orange 2mm foam. Got the dog out of the haouse and always enjoy talking fishing with the staff at this location. I couldn't help but notice a meh quality Cree saddle on the wall priced just over $200. I'm a budget rod buyer (when I'm not building) and a budget fly tyer (I buy my goose biots and ostrich feathers at Hobby Lobby) and I can never see myself spending that kind of money for a cape or saddle, regardless of color, quality, or feather count.

I am nonetheless intrigued by Cree and I tie my share of 12-16 Adams Parachutes which, arguably, a single-feather parachute is probably the most appropriate use for a Cree hackle.

With the decision to not fish already behind me, I set out to spend part of the the day the most least productive way possible by conducting half of an experiment around Cree.

I sat down and tied (3) #14 Adams parachutes: one with the traditional mix of Grizzly and Brown hackles, one with actual Cree I sourced as a 100 pack from Feather Emporium a while back, and one with a Cree I faked by taking a sharpie to a not-great Barred Dark Ginger saddle that doesn't get much use.

First, faking it. I simply taped the BDG hackle to a piece of heavy paper and with a sharpie, I drew in black bars as close to the ginger/white bar transitions as I could. Nothing precise about doing this - I simply added a third color.


First photo left to right: Grizzly/Brown hackles, Cree, unmodified BDG, marked-up BDG. The second photo I moved the marked-up BDG hackle over so you can see what it looked like away from the black bleed on the background.

I went ahead and tied 3 x #14 Adams Parachutes exactly the same way: Grizzly/Brown was tied using 5 hackle turns. The Cree and Fake Cree using 10 turns. I use moose mane for my tails. Same order: G/B, Cree, Fake Cree



Here they are side by side, looking from the bottom up:



My conclusion is the G/B is obviously darker and much more densly hackled. From a color perspective, I can't really see a difference between the Cree and the Fake Cree. The Cree is a little more densly hackled than the Fake Cree but I'll chalk that up most as a product of the Barred Ginger saddle quality.

I do like the sparseness of a parachute tied with a single feather though . . . just not enough to lay out that kind of coin 🙂 and at the very least I think this side-by-side validated my personal opinion on Cree: it's not worth the cost for me.

Which is more appealing to a hungry brookie? I'm firmly in the "it probably really doesn't matter at all" camp, even before today.

What camp are you in and why?

 

[mt_flyfisher]

Interesting side by side comparison. Two questions, or comments.

One is from looking at your pictures of the loose feathers before you tied the flies, I assume they are of the top sides of the feathers, the side you most often see as they are displayed when you buy hackle. If so, you aren’t seeing what the feathers look like on the underside, which is what the fish would see if you tie your parachute flies with the top side facing up. Typically, the underside, or bottom, of the hackle is not a vivid as the top side. Did you tie your hackle “upside down”? If not, you could, as some do, tie your parachute flies with the top side of the hackle facing down to give a more true comparison.

The second comment is that 10 hackle turns on the parachute fly seems to me to be about 5 or 6 turns too many, or more than needed. I don’t know if that effects the comparisons or not.

In any case, the only reason I’d pay a premium for Cree hackle is if I just plain preferred looking at Cree hackle, and not because I thought that Cree performed better. (probably for the same reason as why some gentlemen prefer blond women)

 

[jeffroey]

One is from looking at your pictures of the loose feathers before you tied the flies, I assume they are of the top sides of the feathers, the side you most often see as they are displayed when you buy hackle. If so, you aren’t seeing what the feathers look like on the underside, which is what the fish would see if you tie your parachute flies with the top side facing up. Typically, the underside, or bottom, of the hackle is not a vivid as the top side. Did you tie your hackle “upside down”? If not, you could, as some do, tie your parachute flies with the top side of the hackle facing down to give a more true comparison.

When I tie my Paras, I tie in the hackle so that the top of the feather is facing down when I wrap the post. I do that so the the bend of the barbs is facing up which helps clear the path for the next wrap below it. With that in mind, in the pix of the flies from below, you're looking at the same side of the feather as you see in the pix of the feathers laying side-by-side.

The second comment is that 10 hackle turns on the parachute fly seems to me to be about 5 or 6 turns too many, or more than needed. I don’t know if that effects the comparisons or not.

If I'm wrapping 2 feathers, then yes, I'll usually only wrap about 4-5 turns (x2 feathers = 8-10 turns). Just the way I do it. That's why I chose ~10 single feather turns. That's certainly dependent on the hackle I'm using and in general, looking at the 3 flies I posted, I like them hackled about as much as the Cree fly.

 

[dudemanspecial]

Thanks for posting this, its a good read. I do buy into the idea that color is an important factor, but I think your fake cree would do just as well as a 200 dollar neck would.

That being said, if trout are THAT discerning over the color differences that you are displaying here, I wouldn't be suprised to have one start speaking english to me when I pull it out of the water.

 

[poopdeck]

Nice experiment. I’m never spending 200 on any hunk of feathers. Thankfully I do not partake in creemania or any kind of hackle mania. For adams, most times, I just use a single grizzly hackle and dabble it with a brown sharpie. Cree or a brown and a grizzly hackle brings nothing to the table over a sharpie. Trout do not care, they simply aren’t as intelligent as some people like to think they are, and they have no clue about the value of a dollar. Not so about fly tiers. Nope, fly tiers are smart and can spot a sharpie marked fly 9 times out of 10.

 

[sandflyx]

The car was all packed up last night with plans to head a couple of hours north on my day off today to explore two brookie streams I haven't fished before. With all the rain the past few days, I've been on the fence about investing the time and this morning - more because of wind than water conditions for the streams I was targeting - I waved off and will consider making the trip on Sunday. I just don't like fishing on the weekends . . .

With that as the backdrop, I found myself at my local fly shop picking up a few small odds and ends: a couple of spools of thread, a package of stripped/dyed quills, some orange 2mm foam. Got the dog out of the haouse and always enjoy talking fishing with the staff at this location. I couldn't help but notice a meh quality Cree saddle on the wall priced just over $200. I'm a budget rod buyer (when I'm not building) and a budget fly tyer (I buy my goose biots and ostrich feathers at Hobby Lobby) and I can never see myself spending that kind of money for a cape or saddle, regardless of color, quality, or feather count.

I am nonetheless intrigued by Cree and I tie my share of 12-16 Adams Parachutes which, arguably, a single-feather parachute is probably the most appropriate use for a Cree hackle.

With the decision to not fish already behind me, I set out to spend part of the the day the most least productive way possible by conducting half of an experiment around Cree.

I sat down and tied (3) #14 Adams parachutes: one with the traditional mix of Grizzly and Brown hackles, one with actual Cree I sourced as a 100 pack from Feather Emporium a while back, and one with a Cree I faked by taking a sharpie to a not-great Barred Dark Ginger saddle that doesn't get much use.

First, faking it. I simply taped the BDG hackle to a piece of heavy paper and with a sharpie, I drew in black bars as close to the ginger/white bar transitions as I could. Nothing precise about doing this - I simply added a third color.

View attachment 1641235240View attachment 1641235239
First photo left to right: Grizzly/Brown hackles, Cree, unmodified BDG, marked-up BDG. The second photo I moved the marked-up BDG hackle over so you can see what it looked like away from the black bleed on the background.

I went ahead and tied 3 x #14 Adams Parachutes exactly the same way: Grizzly/Brown was tied using 5 hackle turns. The Cree and Fake Cree using 10 turns. I use moose mane for my tails. Same order: G/B, Cree, Fake Cree

View attachment 1641235241View attachment 1641235242View attachment 1641235243

Here they are side by side, looking from the bottom up:

View attachment 1641235244View attachment 1641235245

My conclusion is the G/B is obviously darker and much more densly hackled. From a color perspective, I can't really see a difference between the Cree and the Fake Cree. The Cree is a little more densly hackled than the Fake Cree but I'll chalk that up most as a product of the Barred Ginger saddle quality.

I do like the sparseness of a parachute tied with a single feather though . . . just not enough to lay out that kind of coin 🙂 and at the very least I think this side-by-side validated my personal opinion on Cree: it's not worth the cost for me.

Which is more appealing to a hungry brookie? I'm firmly in the "it probably really doesn't matter at all" camp, even before today.

What camp are you in and why?

I air brush grizzly to look like cree if I don't have the right size in stock.

 

[sandflyx]

Nice experiment. I’m never spending 200 on any hunk of feathers. Thankfully I do not partake in creemania or any kind of hackle mania. For adams, most times, I just use a single grizzly hackle and dabble it with a brown sharpie. Cree or a brown and a grizzly hackle brings nothing to the table over a sharpie. Trout do not care, they simply aren’t as intelligent as some people like to think they are, and they have no clue about the value of a dollar. Not so about fly tiers. Nope, fly tiers are smart and can spot a sharpie marked fly 9 times out of 10.

I have raised a few cree over the years

 

[nfrechet]

to my fading eyes cree feathers look pretty on the bird or pelt but when wrapped around a hook shank they just lose their coloration and fade out

i'm down with a brown and grizzly

 

[Penns Woods]

to my fading eyes cree feathers look pretty on the bird or pelt but when wrapped around a hook shank they just lose their coloration and fade out

i'm down with a brown and grizzly

I agree, I feel the same way. You have more control with color using brown and grizzly.

 

[Facemelted]

Cree is unnecessary item IMO. Just use brown and grizzly.