Thoughts on class a lists

[k-bob]

I think they put Wolf Swamp run on the wild brook trout enhancement list just to discourage people from following the list

By the way it was surveyed in the rodent sized Rhodo tunnel Downstream of the Powerline...

 

[Zak]

That's correct Bob. Kistler Run too which is another WINNER. I don't pretend to fully understand why they picked the streams they did and I don't think that matters for the sake of this conversation. What counts is that no matter what streams they picked it was destined to fail much like the PAFBc current special rega program has fails. There just aren't enough stream involved in either case. While special rega make us as anglers feel all warm and fuzzy inside it does nothing to improve ones fishing experience. Actually it's quite the opposite. I guess that doesn't matter either though because if we believe it does improve the fishing experience then I suppose it matters ..... . Even though is doesn't ;-). I'm rambling.........

 

[klingy]

I enjoy planning trips to fish for trout. In the states that I have visited on wild trout excursions, most have been very difficult to find info on wild trout. You can often find stocking info, but little to no info on wild fish. Vermont was ok, as were the smokies, but VA, WV, NY, NH, and other eastern states lack much stream data.

I agree that the search for good streams is one of the most rewarding aspects of fishing, but when you only have a week to fish, and you’re trying to plan an itinerary, spending a few hours to hike to a pond/stream/river that you think “might” hold trout a pain. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve done it, and been rewarded and disappointed, but it can be frustrating.

Circling back to PA, the lists/stream maps make our lives so much easier. Planning a PA trip is totally different. My personal opinion is that more info is better. List all of the streams we can survey. If there are 2,000 class a’s, that’s great. Many occasional anglers don’t even know the list exists, or think that all wild fish are “dinks”. I’ve seen streams dropped off of the stocking list and classified as class a, and the pressure drops dramatically. Also, with the added protection wild trout/class a streams receive, to me it’s a no-brained to get them listed.

 

[k-bob]

Lists are one form of stream publicity.. also names that might even appear on maps....I have near zero experience on spring creek near state college, but I think it has a "fisherman's paradise" stretch labeled on some maps, when this stretch might sometimes get too warm this time of year?. Casual fisherman might not realize that a place w that name may have summer thermal issues.

 

[bigjohn58]

k-bob wrote:
Lists are one form of stream publicity.. also names that might even appear on maps....I have near zero experience on spring creek near state college, but I think it has a "fisherman's paradise" stretch labeled on some maps, when this stretch might sometimes get too warm this time of year?. Casual fisherman might not realize that a place w that name may have summer thermal issues.

You have that incorrect. Spring Creek in Bellefonte/State College really has no issues with water temps. You might not want to fish it in the middle of the day but otherwise Spring holds its temps just fine.

 

[k-bob]

A casual fisherman might not realize that a place called "Fishermans Paradise" (that name is even on my Natl Geographic PA Atlas) may have any times when you should not fish it? And I'd guess the name leads to some more fishing there, just like some state listings could...

 

[bigjohn58]

k-bob wrote:
A casual fisherman might not realize that a place called "Fishermans Paradise" (that name is even on my Natl Geographic PA Atlas) may have any times when you should not fish it? And I'd guess the name leads to some more fishing there, just like some state listings could...

State College and over developing the area has impacted Spring Creek some from its glory days. Its still one of the densest populations of wild brown trout in the state. There is a rare occasion like possibly this past weekend where fishing it during the middle of the day would have been very questionable. That probably goes for almost every single stream out there though.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Spring Creek above Bellefonte regularly hits the 70 mark during warm spells, there is another thread where Troutbert had temps of 74 in several locations for the past week. Below the big spring in Bellefonte I have never heard of temps over the mid 60's.

 

[kbobb]

PAFBC has indicated in recent years that stocking streams is a big expense in their budget.
Has anyone speculated that part of the reason some streams, particularly those that some might consider marginal, are added to the class A list so they do not have to be stocked if PAFBC doesn't want to?

 

[troutbert]

kbobb wrote:
PAFBC has indicated in recent years that stocking streams is a big expense in their budget.
Has anyone speculated that part of the reason some streams, particularly those that some might consider marginal, are added to the class A list so they do not have to be stocked if PAFBC doesn't want to?

Putting streams on the Class A list does not reduce their expense of raising trout.

Suppose a stream currently gets stocked with a 1,000 trout per year. If it gets put on the Class A list, they do not reduce the number of trout raised by 1,000.

They simply re-distribute those trout to other streams.

 

[troutbert]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Spring Creek above Bellefonte regularly hits the 70 mark during warm spells, there is another thread where Troutbert had temps of 74 in several locations for the past week. Below the big spring in Bellefonte I have never heard of temps over the mid 60's.

It hit 70F on Friday and Saturday, and 72F on Sunday.

I had predicted that it would hit 74 when the forecast was for air temps of 97F. Luckily it didn't get as hot as predicted. I think the high was around 91-92F.

When the air temps are in the 90s, streams are going to warm up. Because PHYSICS!

 

[Swattie87]

troutbert wrote:

Putting streams on the Class A list does not reduce their expense of raising trout.

Suppose a stream currently gets stocked with a 1,000 trout per year. If it gets put on the Class A list, they do not reduce the number of trout raised by 1,000.

They simply re-distribute those trout to other streams.

True. But the redistribution itself is potentially cost saving. Say those 1000 Trout would have necessitated another separate half day of fuel and manpower to stock in that now Class A stream. If those 1000 fish are redistributed to a stream that is already stocked anyway, as most often happens, they could be included in a stocking that is already planned for on that stream.

 

[Mike]

The trout that would have been stocked in a now Class A section do not necessarily get easily absorbed into a load or loads of fish that were already destined to other streams or lakes. They might be or might not be. It may be that the fish when added to another stream or lake allocation cause one or more new truck trips to occur. The additional fish would cause this to occur if the increased allocation would now exceed truck capacity, which would be particularly easy to do during the preseason stockings.

In addition, troutbert is right. Terminating stockings (for any number of possible reasons) does not result in less trout being raised.

 

[bigjohn58]

kbobb wrote:
PAFBC has indicated in recent years that stocking streams is a big expense in their budget.
Has anyone speculated that part of the reason some streams, particularly those that some might consider marginal, are added to the class A list so they do not have to be stocked if PAFBC doesn't want to?

Just because a stream is labeled "Class A" does not mean anything when it comes to stocking. I know a lot of "Class A" streams that are stocked and stocked just as heavy as ever before.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

+1

 

[Mike]

I disagree that "a lot" of Class A streams are stocked by the PFBC ( state ) Hatcheries. The number is known. Troutbert listed the nine that are stocked in his post #19 in this thread.

The confusion that sometimes occurs among some anglers with respect to nomenclature is when a stream has a Class A section that is unstocked and another section that's not Class A that is stocked. They refer to the stream as a Class A stream while technically it is not a Class A stream; it is a stream with a Class A section and a stocked section that is of some other classification.

 

[silverfox]

Mike wrote:
I disagree that "a lot" of Class A streams are stocked by the PFBC ( state ) Hatcheries. The number is known. Troutbert listed the nine that are stocked in his post #19 in this thread.

The confusion that sometimes occurs among some anglers with respect to nomenclature is when a stream has a Class A section that is unstocked and another section that's not Class A that is stocked. They refer to the stream as a Class A stream while technically it is not a Class A stream; it is a stream with a Class A section and a stocked section that is of some other classification.

This is the practice that I just don't understand. In the streams I'm aware of, the stocking occurs right up to the boundary between ATW and Class A. Does the PFBC think the stocked fish stay right where they're dumped? Where do you think those stocked fish end up? Typically (though not always), the Class A section occurs in the cooler, upstream section of a stream. The stocked fish seek thermal refuge too. They aren't that stupid.

I've even seen banannas in an adjacent stream from where they were stocked. They swam down the stream they were stocked in, then up another feeder stream miles away.

I don't think it's confusion, I think this is exactly the problem. The state says they only stock a handful of class A stream SECTIONS (https://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/trout-classa-stocked.htm). That's only where they stock right over class a SECTIONS though. The number of class a STREAMS that get stocked is much, much higher than that list. Dumping buckets 5 feet from the end of the class a section is no different than dumping them right in the class a section. IMO

 

[bigjohn58]

Mike wrote:
I disagree that "a lot" of Class A streams are stocked by the PFBC ( state ) Hatcheries. The number is known. Troutbert listed the nine that are stocked in his post #19 in this thread.

The confusion that sometimes occurs among some anglers with respect to nomenclature is when a stream has a Class A section that is unstocked and another section that's not Class A that is stocked. They refer to the stream as a Class A stream while technically it is not a Class A stream; it is a stream with a Class A section and a stocked section that is of some other classification.

So you are trying to tell me the sections of Fishing Creek and Bald Eagle Creek (where Spring Creek enters down to the dam) that are stocked technically are not Class A? Thats making me laugh! Fishing Creek remain stocked because of the populated area that it flows through and the meat hunters that frequent the stream. People would raise too much of a fuss if it wasn't stocked.

 

[afishinado]

bigjohn58 wrote:

Mike wrote:
I disagree that "a lot" of Class A streams are stocked by the PFBC ( state ) Hatcheries. The number is known. Troutbert listed the nine that are stocked in his post #19 in this thread.

The confusion that sometimes occurs among some anglers with respect to nomenclature is when a stream has a Class A section that is unstocked and another section that's not Class A that is stocked. They refer to the stream as a Class A stream while technically it is not a Class A stream; it is a stream with a Class A section and a stocked section that is of some other classification.

So you are trying to tell me the sections of Fishing Creek and Bald Eagle Creek (where Spring Creek enters down to the dam) that are stocked technically are not Class A? Thats making me laugh! Fishing Creek remain stocked because of the populated area that it flows through and the meat hunters that frequent the stream. People would raise too much of a fuss if it wasn't stocked.

While agree with the above, one can never forget that many anglers target stocked fish and these anglers all buy fishing licenses and trout stamps. The FBC is damned if they do and damned if they don't (stock).

Unless or until PA anglers recognize that wild trout have great value and fishing for them is rewarding without stocking over them. The put and take mentality in PA dies hard.

Again, stocking in streams not capable of sustaining wild trout is a good thing; it allows anglers the chance to fish for trout, at least in the cooler seasons, when not much fishing would occur. But stocking over a Class A population of wild trout is not the right thing to do. Unfortunately, many of our fellow anglers disagree; and that mindset really has to change before any real changes in stocking policy happens.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

bigjohn58 wrote:

Mike wrote:
I disagree that "a lot" of Class A streams are stocked by the PFBC ( state ) Hatcheries. The number is known. Troutbert listed the nine that are stocked in his post #19 in this thread.

The confusion that sometimes occurs among some anglers with respect to nomenclature is when a stream has a Class A section that is unstocked and another section that's not Class A that is stocked. They refer to the stream as a Class A stream while technically it is not a Class A stream; it is a stream with a Class A section and a stocked section that is of some other classification.

So you are trying to tell me the sections of Fishing Creek and Bald Eagle Creek (where Spring Creek enters down to the dam) that are stocked technically are not Class A? Thats making me laugh! Fishing Creek remain stocked because of the populated area that it flows through and the meat hunters that frequent the stream. People would raise too much of a fuss if it wasn't stocked.

I think Mike understands that those stream sections are Class A. No one is hiding that the lower stretch of Fishing Creek near Mill Hall is Class A, there are posters on every other tree stating such at the Ax Factory parking lot