The Corbett Memorial Day Patriot Fly (MS Drilling Exec. Order)

[duckfoot]

While I do not disagree with your opinion of Kiribati's demise, it should also be noted that coral reefs do very well in warm, nutrient-rich waters.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I'm sure the people of Kiribati will be glad to hear that, will NYC make a good reef? Something tells me they are coming down the line too.

When they all migrate to pa we can tell them how good it is to have them here and how the fishes love their new home

 

[franklin]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:

If we exclude the global warming debate the environment is much cleaner than 50 - 75 years ago.

Franklin,
I don't have the time right now but this is absurd. The Pacific Ocean is leaking radiation alone. Honey bees will be extinct so get ready for your lab grown GMO apples. Global warming is real. I dunno how you could even make this statement.

I feel like certain things in our environment have gotten better but there is far more worse than good.

Between 1945 and the early 1960s there were over 500 nuclear bombs detonated above ground. Rivers in the US ran black from coal during the 50s and other rivers even caught fire. There is no question the environment is better overall than during the peak of waste dumping during the 50s and 60s.

There is no question there are more streams of better quality here in Pa than there were 60 years ago. Air quality is much better as well. And we have much better controls on insecticides. I remember when people could dredge coal from streams and rivers to heat their houses.

Yes, there are some challenges left. The recent downturn in the Susquehanna is only highlighted by the dramatic improvement from the 50s. I witnessed it then and I wouldn't trade where we are today for those times.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

So we are discussing pa environment.

Yes it is better for now.

Ask South America if the environment is better than it was 60 years ago

 

[franklin]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
So we are discussing pa environment.

Yes it is better for now.

Ask South America if the environment is better than it was 60 years ago

Emerging industrial countries tend to follow similar patterns. As they start they tend have fewer controls but as they mature they evolve to a higher level of controls. This happened in the US, Europe, Japan, and starting to happen in China. Only China has the scale to match the level of pollution that the US put out at our peak. And that should soon start to improve as more controls are instituted.

There are a lot of miss-conceptions about environmental rules in third world countries. I get exposed to some through working with our factories in those areas. For instance in the 1990s Mexico had a more stringent water quality law than what was in place here in the US. Our factory processes had to be improved when they were moved there.

Also many processes used third world countries benefits from improvements made here. We use lead free solder in all factories world wide today. At one time lead solder was used with acidic flux and solvent based washes. This all went down the drain. That doesn't happen today in any of our plants.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Franklin you are talking industry.
I'm talking environment.

The amazon has been deforested at an alarming rate and less than half of the entire thing remains.

While industry and environment do go hand in hand, I was commenting on your general comment that the environment is better today than 60 years ago. It's flat out false.
Speaking of....

Being a guy that built military weapons. Lead solder and acid flux are still used in us companies as late as 2 years ago when I left.

 

[Dale49]

Hate to get into this environmental urination contest but I'm wondering how old some of you are that are commenting and what are your life experiences.

Damage is just beginning? Well yes and no.

I grew up in the Pittsburgh area in the 50s and 60s. The Mon, the Allegheny and Ohio rivers were a mess. When I was young, mother took me to downtown PGH in the summer. The street lights came on in the afternoon - air pollution. Streams where I lived ran red and orange. Today, there are fish in them. Yes, most of this happened because of the mills and the improvements were in part because the mills closed but also new air and water regs were in place.

Do we have a ways to go - yes. Have we made things better in PA - well I think yes based on my life experiences.

Just my little entry into this thread.

Dale

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I'm 36 Dale and I have seen all but a few states.
I've seen the population of my own county of lancaster explode. I've noticed the air on hot summer days is more hazy than before.
Water quality in lancaster county has not changed much. Full of nitrate in most of the watersheds. There is little hope of that changing in the next 500 years , given the krast aquifers,unless we stop farming.

The biggest change of this county honestly is disappearing farmland and a burst of urbanization.

 

[Dale49]

I've been all over the world (I've seen the "mess" in China and India) and all over the US, worked in the environmental, health and safety field for over 40 years. Been on many EH&S improvement projects with aim to capture, control and recycle industrial pollutant. I've also worked in the natural gas industry and understand that there are responsible fracking techniques. Industry is not always the causative agent to deterioration.

Urban sprawl can be a significant issue with all that comes with it, especially more autos on the road. Phoenix for example has strict auto emission and industrial air pollution laws and still you can see the haze over the city. Significant cause for this - autos coupled with the topography. We love our cars!

Unfortunately in some cases responsible planning is lacking by the powers to be and that leads to some of the issues.

While I understand your concern where you live, I just wanted point out that in some areas progress has been made but we do have a ways to go. and based on my experiences, not with passing unscientific and not well thought out rules and regulations with unintended consequences.

Just my 2 cents.

Dale

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Well honestly my thoughts and concerns really are not concerning current industry practices Dale. It's the lack or should I say seemingly lack or urgency around the world for better industry. thought I expressed that but I didnot.

When I hear natural gas is needed, I cringe because in the end it's just another band-aid. What we Need is renewable clean energy.

 

[Dale49]

Agree with 100% on renewable energy. It's my personal opinion and just my opinion that the breakthroughs to cost efficient renewable energy will be developed and improved upon by our current energy companies - The Exxons, the Shells and so on.
Why do I have such an opinion/ They're energy companies and even they know fossil fuel consumption isn't forever and that's their future business plan plus they have the cash and attract the best of best in science.

I could be wrong on this. I also feel that we have to wean ourselves off of fossil, let the renewable technology catch up but not to take a path where our current energy producing industries are hamstrung with unscientific and over the top regulations forcing closures, loss of jobs and a significant economic impact to this country.

I was just thinking how many of us would take fishing trips to various parts of this and other states if gas was $10.00/gallon and the average monthly electric/heating bills were pushing $800/month or more?

Dale

 

[Chaz]

Another impact to drilling which doesn't get much ink is invasive species in the disturbed areas where the drilling is taking place. Many of the plants that start browning in the drilling areas are spread by activities related to drilling; vehicles, foot traffic, and other activities spread seeds to the drilling sites, and soon there's a problem.