The "B's" have it ( sometimes)

[troutbert]

It's just a ratio: weight of fish / surface area of water

kg (kilogram) is a weight measure.

ha (hectare) is an area measure.

They typically survey 300 meters. The area of water is simply the length of the stretch surveyed, multiplied by the average width.

 

[BrooksAndHooks]

I stand corrected. I was under the impression previously that they had a total under a certain size, now I see that they have an overall total and a total under a certain size.

My general point still stands though, the class system doesn't promise big fish, just a certain weight which can be compromised of many small fish.

 

[steveo27]

Im sure a lot of the streams that are currently classified as class A waters arent class A and a lot of B,C, and D waters have changed since the last survey as well.

It would be need to see the current classifications of all previously class A classified streams

 

[pcray1231]

I stand corrected. I was under the impression previously that they had a total under a certain size, now I see that they have an overall total and a total under a certain size.

You are confusing going on the natural reproduction list to going on the class A list.

i.e. to be qualified as having natural reproduction, they need to get X amount from multiple year classes.

But once it's established that is HAS natural reproduction, then it is rated as class A, B, C, or D based on total biomass of all wild trout combined.

A's go on a separate list of class A streams.

To differentiate between B, C, and D you need to consult the PFBC files, as it's not publicly available on the website. But if it's on the natural repro list, and NOT on the class A list, then it's B, C, or D.

 

[k-bob]

I like the lists, but as a thread on Willow Creek in Berks now on PAFF suggests, they may not really have frequently and recently gathered data. For example in the thread on Willow creek Mike points out that Willow Creek may now be below class a rating (but it's still on the website as a class a stream).

 

[tomitrout]

Good, leave it there so it continues to fall under the environmental protections that a Class A status entitles.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

Well, Mike, I guess you have an answer to your OP, but it may not be to the question you asked.

It seems to me, reading through the responses, there is considerable confusion regarding the class system. It's hard to give a qualitative reply to your question if the terms are not understood.

As with all things, there are many opinions that may or may not be based on reality, especially when your class system MUST be general to account for the myriad water types. It's no fault of the biologists.

As has been said many times on this site, the class system is a starting point. There is no substitute for going out and fishing a stream, maybe multiple times to account for variables such as weather, time of year, hatch cycles, etc.

IMO, that's the fun part!

 

[troutbert]

On smallish brook trout streams, they typically only survey a 300 meter section.

Which 300 meters they choose to survey has a very big influence on the kg/ha numbers.

The habitat on freestone streams varies greatly. Some sections are very flat, with water only an inch deep. In other places you have pools 3 feet deep, with lots of cover from rocks or tree roots or large woody debris.

So the estimates coming from these surveys are very rough.

 

[Swattie87]

^Yep. Talking Freestoners only for the purpose of this post...Once you’ve eliminated the streams that can’t support, or only marginally support, wild Trout from a water quality perspective (acid/pollution/temps/etc), my experience is that how much biomass a stream holds is most closely related to habitat. That’s why IMO a lot of the relatively big biomass freestoners in PA are in the Poconos…Steep gradient and lots of plunge pools alternating with pocket water. There’s fish in every “good” spot on nearly all streams capable of supporting wild Trout…The better streams just have more “good” spots. Some have A LOT more.

 

[Chaz]

The those streams are off the radar and often hold very nice trout that can be easy to catching the reason they are easier to catch is lack pf pressure. Since the Class B list isn't published people don't have easy access to the information.
As for me I don't care much about Classifications of streams that I fish. I look for remote blue lines on the Gazetteer and check those lines against the wild trout list. Sometimes those blue lines aren't on the list, but because there are other wild trout streams nearby I'll check them anyway. Often I find a good new stream.
The other reason I like the 'Bs' is I like fishing by myself, or at least where there won't be other anglers in the way.
A hectare is 10,000 square meters, the metric equivalent of an acre. Classes are on the PFBC web site, but you have to look for them.

 

[pcray1231]

Yep. Talking Freestoners only for the purpose of this post...Once you’ve eliminated the streams that can’t support, or only marginally support, wild Trout from a water quality perspective (acid/pollution/temps/etc), my experience is that how much biomass a stream holds is most closely related to habitat. That’s why IMO a lot of the relatively big biomass freestoners in PA are in the Poconos…Steep gradient and lots of plunge pools alternating with pocket water. There’s fish in every “good” spot on nearly all streams capable of supporting wild Trout…The better streams just have more “good” spots. Some have A LOT more.

That was the point I was trying to make earlier.

A lot of the class D's fall in that "marginal" range, meaning they get a little too warm, have some pollution issue, lack breeding substrate, maybe have siltation issues, or whatever. And while there may be areas with a few fish, there is also some dead water that doesn't look like it should be dead. i.e. they don't always fish well.

But A's, B's, and C's. Mainly it's just the density of habitat and they all have a fish everywhere there should be a fish. The other points are valid, about only surveying small sections and doing it rarely when populations fluctuate considerably on that stream from place to place and time to time. i.e. survey a different 300 meter section an a C can be an A, or vice versa. Or survey the same section 3 years later and you may get a different answer as well.

But for the most part, when I fish a freestone A, B, or C, I catch fish and am not disappointed with my outing. So I don't consider a B or C to be less attractive than an A, but nor are they better. I mentally just group these as "good trout streams". IMO, the PFBC should eliminate B's and C's and just lump them all under class A, as I don't feel the distinction is all that meaningful. Can still have a separate class for D, which basically means this is not considered to be a quality sport fishery as there are some issues, however, there are fish present, so it maybe has some promise if we can fix those issues....

And, IMO, D's SHOULD be stocked. A's, B's, and C's should not.

When you get into larger streams biomass is more about temperature and food availability....

 

[k-bob]

Poconos? yeah some streams w/ nice habitat in say Monroe county... and, north of the ridge, Monroe is almost entirely Catskill bedrocks. Catskill buffers pretty well, so the acid rain effects aren't as bad as in the parts of Carbon or Luzerne and Lackawanna w/ coal bearin' Pottsville bedrock. (old paper on acid rain "in every case but one, watersheds with more than 30 percent Pottsville Group bedrock did not support trout.")

 

[Swattie87]

pcray1231 wrote:
IMO, the PFBC should eliminate B's and C's and just lump them all under class A, as I don't feel the distinction is all that meaningful. Can still have a separate class for D, which basically means this is not considered to be a quality sport fishery as there are some issues, however, there are fish present, so it maybe has some promise if we can fix those issues....

And, IMO, D's SHOULD be stocked. A's, B's, and C's should not.

Agree. Two classes would be my preferred method as well, with the higher one not being stocked. The current D/C line seems about right for the cutoff.

 

[k-bob]

one nice thing about the class a list: alkalinity data. as pat once pointed out here, getting that number off the floor, even to 10 versus < 5, may be a good sign about a tiny step-over brookie stream if you've never been there.

 

[BrooksAndHooks]

Pcray,

yep. I was commenting on the fly and mixed them up. I stopped worrying so much about the specifics of what the surveying means and started just fishing and finding out myself. The surveys, especially older ones, are a tool to use, but only carry so much weight.

I do agree, some class Bs are my favorite streams.

 

[Mike]

The sampling that troutbert refers to usually involves sampling sites that are 300 m or longer except in the case of documenting the presence of wild trout in unassessed water surveys, where the protocols are different. In most cases, there is a target of sampling 10% of the stream length or stream section length if the stream has been divided into multiple management units, or sections. In an ideal world, sampling sites are representative of the sections, but that is sometimes easier said than done when private ownership is involved and much easier to accomplish on public land. This does mean, however, that the "best" habitat is generally not selected for sampling unless that "best" habitat is a substantial component of the section or representative of the section. So, as pcray has suggested, some streams may fish better than their classification might suggest if the anglers cherry pick the habitat that they fish, picking better habitat that is better than what was judged to be representative habitat by a survey crew.

 

[Chaz]

Some of the sections that are chosen are very poor habitat because of human intervention along the streams in PA. Channelization is a big issue with our streams, and it isn't just on private land, it can be quite an impact on public land.
A good example of this can be seen along a stream that many know in the SE region, Northkill. There are a couple of bends right zt the road, then you get back in there a few hundred feet and you can see that the streams was channelized a long time ago. You can even see the old channel meandering through the woods. This is pretty typical of public land streams.
Straight Run in NC PA is another stream channelized on public land as is Germania Branch where a RR ran straight up the valley.

 

[Sylvaneous]

There are streams in Venango county that have only sections that are very good. Some of those stream sections are, indeed, very good. Outside of that, not so much, so they wouldn't rate very highly. So this is a factor as well in some places I know of.

Syl