Susquehanna pollution. One small step

[coyoterahn]

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2023/...s-harrisburg-project-will-help-stop-that.html

As many on this board know, Harrisburg continues to dump raw sewage into the Susquehanna every year during “rain events”. The attached article describes a small step being taken in the right direction to reduce this pollution. Sadly, it seems like nothing significant will be accomplished to further reduce the dumping of raw sewage into the river for the foreseeable future. it’s a sad situation.
Last year 700 million gallons of raw sewage were dumped into the river at Harrisburg!

 

[caddisflyer]

Yes. A VERY SMALL step. This article is talking about a single parking lot with POSSIBLY more to come. Kind of ridiculous considering the actual scope. This will barely do anything to help the problem. This is a feel good article. You can build a rain garden at your house and then hope everyone else does but that's hardly addressing the issue. No hard hitting press will call out the city for their mismanagement for some reason. Rampant development is greenlighted with the idea that more business broadens tax base but the funds never get used to fix the pollution problem. The term "environmental justice" gets thrown around in this article and many others lately. It's always a red flag when terms like this disguise the real problem of their mismanagement to somehow being related to having something to do with disenfranchised poor people.

Lancaster City continues to dump raw sewage in the Conestoga River. All cities have funds available and they decide what is a priority. It seems like it takes a LOT of negative press to get them to do anything related to this issue. Other infrastructure always takes precedence. My son has tried repeatedly to bring this up in public meetings here. He gets shut down by the mouthpieces that are in charge every time. A lawsuit might be the only way to hold officials accountable.

They installed lights though!

New lights, warning signs alert for sewage overflows into the Conestoga River

If you see lights which are located near the Conestoga River turn red or yellow, people do not have the green light to enter the water. Sewage is flowing.

www.fox43.com

 

[troutbert]

Yes. A VERY SMALL step. This article is talking about a single parking lot with POSSIBLY more to come. Kind of ridiculous considering the actual scope. This will barely do anything to help the problem. This is a feel good article. You can build a rain garden at your house and then hope everyone else does but that's hardly addressing the issue. No hard hitting press will call out the city for their mismanagement for some reason. Rampant development is greenlighted with the idea that more business broadens tax base but the funds never get used to fix the pollution problem. The term "environmental justice" gets thrown around in this article and many others lately. It's always a red flag when terms like this disguise the real problem of their mismanagement to somehow being related to having something to do with disenfranchised poor people.

Lancaster City continues to dump raw sewage in the Conestoga River. All cities have funds available and they decide what is a priority. It seems like it takes a LOT of negative press to get them to do anything related to this issue. Other infrastructure always takes precedence. My son has tried repeatedly to bring this up in public meetings here. He gets shut down by the mouthpieces that are in charge every time. A lawsuit might be the only way to hold officials accountable.

Most of the development occurs outside the city limits. So the city has NO control at all over what happens in the suburban areas and doesn't receive income from those areas.

Cities typically have high expenses relative to revenue. These old combined sewer systems are ancient and decrepit. Building a whole new sewer and stormwater system in a city will cost massive amounts of money.

 

[caddisflyer]

Most of the development occurs outside the city limits. So the city has NO control at all over what happens in the suburban areas and doesn't receive income from those areas.

Cities typically have high expenses relative to revenue. These old combined sewer systems are ancient and decrepit. Building a whole new sewer and stormwater system in a city will cost massive amounts of money.

Probably true. The problem then is about boundaries between cities and counties?
I believe Scranton has been working on this issue with some successes. If you look at Scranton it is made up of many communities with their own rules and regulations. Yet somehow things get done there. I think the federal government dept of justice got after them to get the ball rolling.

 

[coyoterahn]

Most of the development occurs outside the city limits. So the city has NO control at all over what happens in the suburban areas and doesn't receive income from those areas.

Cities typically have high expenses relative to revenue. These old combined sewer systems are ancient and decrepit. Building a whole new sewer and stormwater system in a city will cost massive amounts of money.

Your points are valid. However this problem has been virtually completely ignored for decades. Maybe spending priorities at the federal, state and local levels need to change. Less feel good projects and more projects that accomplish high value priority issues. Not to mention proactive management of said issues.

 

[riverwhy]

And isn’t it for a new parking lot? If so the net
Impact is zero. Shocking that almost as much untreated combined flow as treated entered the river. I am curious what other cities are doing. The problem is much bigger than what these cities can handle financially. Is a complete
Retrofit Even possible?
Meanwhile we are also paving over most of Cumberland county for development and warehouses. Was reading through Limestone Legends last night. What wonderful streams have been destroyed in my lifetime.

 

[Tigereye]

Hmmm. I find that certain folks not entering this conversation puzzling. So much for advocacy.

 

[salmo]

It may be for the parking lot, but perhaps the parking lot takes flow from the street because of its location and slope? If it's just the Parking Lot, one small step at a time. I wonder how the EPA hasn't fined the city for violations of the CWA?

 

[Mike]

The parking lot being discussed is the first project within an apparent list of projects to be completed with the funds described in the story according to my review of the story. Just pointing out that detail in case it was missed.

As for retrofits of stormwater controls, such as retention basins, they are certainly desirable to me and I have seen what I suspect was one done in another Pa city, but they require open space that is often limited in urban areas. The one that I saw was the conversion of an expansive triangular property created by a 3-way intersection. I have suspicions that another project within a suburban township may have also been the creation of a stormwater basin a fair distance from any development. If so, perhaps it was for a mitigative effect for previous development somewhere else in the township.

 

[bugs4]

And isn’t it for a new parking lot? If so the net
Impact is zero. Shocking that almost as much untreated combined flow as treated entered the river. I am curious what other cities are doing. The problem is much bigger than what these cities can handle financially. Is a complete
Retrofit Even possible?
Meanwhile we are also paving over most of Cumberland county for development and warehouses. Was reading through Limestone Legends last night. What wonderful streams have been destroyed in my lifetime.

Wonderful streams in the middle of Centre County are being destroyed in a similar fashion.

 

[troutbert]

Wonderful streams in the middle of Centre County are being destroyed in a similar fashion.

There is increasing impervious surfaces and stormwater runoff from development in Centre County.

But there isn't any combined sewage and stormwater system in Centre County and resulting raw sewage dumping as was discussed in the OP about Harrisburg.

In Centre Cty the stormwater systems and sewer systems are separate. And the sewage systems are quite good.

 

[greywolf]

These are the kind of conservation issues that should be at the top of the agenda. Plenty of rivers and streams that need a lot of help.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

Altoona has the same problem. I was told Altoona is second to Harrisburg in sewage discharge during high water events.

 

[Broodstock]

Pittsburgh and its watersheds have been pumping sewage in the three rivers for ages. There are plans to remedy the CSO issues but that will take ages also. CSO won’t do much to help the other point source pollution or the AMD in our watersheds. They are much better than they were 40 years ago- the Allegheny is full of smb. One striking thing is that a lot of secondary and tertiary tributaries in Allegheny County are buried. Those that are not have much less water in them since runoff that historically might have gone into the water table or into smaller order tributaries goes into sewer systems and directly into the big rivers.

 

[Hackle]

What's worse and not discussed with waste water is the massive amounts of quantum ammonium compounds from cleaners used during covid. Sewage plants cannot remove these compounds and those compounds effect the efficiency of the plant by killing the micro organism the sewage plants use to break down the waste water. QAC effect on micro invertebrates has not been studied that I can find.

 

[riverwhy]

What's worse and not discussed with waste water is the massive amounts of quantum ammonium compounds from cleaners used during covid. Sewage plants cannot remove these compounds and those compounds effect the efficiency of the plant by killing the micro organism the sewage plants use to break down the waste water. QAC effect on micro invertebrates has not been studied that I can find.

So are you saying from people dumping it into sinks and toilets? I know our school had tons left over and the janitors were told to "use it up". Please supply a link if you have one.

 

[Hackle]

So are you saying from people dumping it into sinks and toilets? I know our school had tons left over and the janitors were told to "use it up". Please supply a link if you have one.

Yes, I've talked to the gentleman running the sewage plant. It kills the microbes at the plant. Psu sprayed with it. Fogged with it. Applied it to the football field endzone as the testing was explained to me. I told them they were nuts letting athletes roll in it. Filled mop buckets up and mopped the wrestling mates. I submitted the only research on it sterilizing rats just from cleaning their cages. But psu demanded its use, and Psu opp dumped buckets of it into spring creek thru the sewage plant.

 

[Hackle]

So are you saying from people dumping it into sinks and toilets? I know our school had tons left over and the janitors were told to "use it up". Please supply a link if you

Psu has been hosing off research spray equipment at rock springs into an old ground sump for years. All kept quiet by EHS. The fda at rock spring dumps their water water into an old sump in garage floor.. psu won't regulate the fda sight waste there.. sad..