Stop Stocking

troutbert wrote:
I'd still like to see someone address the point I raised.

Does stocking of hatchery trout harm the populations of smallmouth bass, fallfish, suckers, etc.?

If you think so, explain why you think so.
The impact is not equal across species. Bass are different to fallfish which in turn are different to suckers etc etc. To answer the bass question directly - there is no data to show that stocking trout impacts bass (lots of data to show that bass impact everything when they are stocked into new waters) but that's not because there may be no impact but more because, as far as I can see across the literature, that specific question hasn't been asked (and notwithstanding Char_master's interesting observations). The effects of trout (or bass, or any predator at or near the top of the food chain) are well documented as having profound impacts on aquatic ecosystems when they are stocked into waters where they haven't been present before. You only have to have a quick squint at the literature to see a whole cascade of food web effects, declines in species richness, changes in nutrient cycling etc etc. That was really my point in post #10 - effects are much more profound on the other organisms in the water and might be less easily measured on our favorites like bass.

Pcray and FarmerDave's points are well made though. Stocking in short temporal windows is likely to diminish any impact. Yet the practice certainly won't have no effect on food webs. How long a pulse of stocking is felt in the ecology of a non-trout stream, how well those webs recover, whether they revert to the same state they were before are difficult to answer. But - as was my main point - in the absence of a clear answer shouldn't we treat these places on their own terms, as environments in and of themselves (and if degraded help them back to their former selves even if that means not fishing them) and not as places that we try to make look like the high street, an aquatic Starbucks on every creek corner dolling out sub-standard trout - a rather pale and pathetic reflection of the real thing. Parsing the differences between A type water and B and C and D is just another way of maintaining an extractive mentality on the 'Resource'.

Mike's point is well made too and I know the board has debated the impacts of trout on trout ad infinitum. Impacts of stocking on the wider food chain in waters that haven't had trout are easy to show. It is much more difficult to categorically show negative impacts on wild trout from stocking domestic trout into waters whose food chains have already been shaped by a standing wild trout population. I have read the literature and very few studies are unambiguous. Even the well known study from Montana that changed that States attitude to stocking, raises questions about the conclusions it draws because of the experimental design and the possible lack of meaningful controls. In addition, studies in the UK on some of their southern chalkstreams found no gross effect of stocked trout on wild populations. That's not to say there may not have been something going on but this kind of field work is inherently difficult and often short term. The more subtle effects, the effects that become apparent over longer time periods, only come out from dedicated long term study - which you know is financially hungry work. Having said that, most of the indications (if not clear conclusions) are towards the negative and so that should be a good enough reason to not f@$k around with a natural environment. No?
 
Stocking over native brook trout is still very common.

If you want to improve things, that would be the place to start.

And the PFBC does take into consideration public comment. Several of us having been asking the PFBC to end stocking on a "gem" of a brook trout stream in NC PA for some years.

The PFBC reduced the amount of stocking gradually, then ended it altogether.

Maybe they would have done the same thing without public input. But making commentary "can't hurt" and may help.

If they get complaints from someone about the ending of stocking there, they can say "We have had requests from other anglers who would like it managed for wild brook trout, and not be stocked."

That way they have some backing if they get questioned by anglers and legislators.

If no one speaks out in favor of ending stocking over native brookies, they are exposed when taking that action.

As long as stocking is still occurring over native brook trout, don't imagine that they will end stocking in smallmouth bass streams like Pine Creek, Driftwood Branch etc.

But reducing stocking over native brook trout is "doable." The PFBC people want to do this. They have done quite a bit of it already. But they need support from anglers to continue.


 
troutbert wrote:
Stocking over native brook trout is still very common.

If you want to improve things, that would be the place to start.

And the PFBC does take into consideration public comment. Several of us having been asking the PFBC to end stocking on a "gem" of a brook trout stream in NC PA for some years.

The PFBC reduced the amount of stocking gradually, then ended it altogether.

Maybe they would have done the same thing without public input. But making commentary "can't hurt" and may help.

If they get complaints from someone about the ending of stocking there, they can say "We have had requests from other anglers who would like it managed for wild brook trout, and not be stocked."

That way they have some backing if they get questioned by anglers and legislators.

If no one speaks out in favor of ending stocking over native brookies, they are exposed when taking that action.

As long as stocking is still occurring over native brook trout, don't imagine that they will end stocking in smallmouth bass streams like Pine Creek, Driftwood Branch etc.

But reducing stocking over native brook trout is "doable." The PFBC people want to do this. They have done quite a bit of it already. But they need support from anglers to continue.

^ A very good assessment of the current situation and a very reasonable approach.

Standing up and yelling "STOP THE STOCKING!!!" is a lot like standing up and yelling "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!"

What does that mean?...What's the plan?

Well, what that means is....the cessation of stocking would inflict a loss of a large part of the PFBC revenue from license sales and taxes on fishing equipment.

What's the plan?.....I'm afraid yelling "save the chubs" falls on deaf ears. Instead, the course of action to affect real change is take stock (no pun intended) of the current condition of all cold water streams and fish, and fight to preserve or enhance that environment which may include the cessation of stocking.

Start with the highest priority streams (native trout?) and/or streams where the impact would be greatest and/or the resistance will be least. Keep working your way through the list methodically, project by project.

The above plan is working. Many streams in PA have been reclaimed and now support wild trout populations that didn't exist just a decade ago.

I believe TU is responsible for a lot of the above success. I suggest joining the organization and get involved in the many cold water stream projects they are working on in all parts of the state right now.


 
afishinado wrote:
^ A very good assessment of the current situation and a very reasonable approach.

Standing up and yelling "STOP THE STOCKING!!!" is a lot like standing up and yelling "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!"

What does that mean?...What's the plan?

Well, what that means is....the cessation of stocking would inflict a loss of a large part of the PFBC revenue from license sales and taxes on fishing equipment.

What's the plan?.....I'm afraid yelling "save the chubs" falls on deaf ears. Instead, the course of action to affect real change is take stock (no pun intended) of the current condition of all cold water streams and fish, and fight to preserve or enhance that environment which may include the cessation of stocking.

Start with the highest priority streams (native trout?) and/or streams where the impact would be greatest and/or the resistance will be least. Keep working your way through the list methodically, project by project.

The above plan is working. Many streams in PA have been reclaimed and now support wild trout populations that didn't exist just a decade ago.

I believe TU is responsible for a lot of the above success. I suggest joining the organization and get involved in the many cold water stream projects they are working on in all parts of the state right now.

What, standing up and shouting "save the chubs" isn't going to make it happen? Dang, and I so thought it would.

I'm sure you and Troutbert are quite right about how to change the current practices.
 
Char_Master wrote:
troutbert, I've definitely seen impacts on a few species, while others don't seem to suffer at all. My local creek once had a very large, healthy population of SMBs in it. The fish would average 6-14" with a few over 16". Since the PFBC started stocking trout, the fish are much smaller. Average size now is 3-6" with an 8" fish being a "trophy", anything over 12" is almost unheard of. My theory is because both species eat primarily terrestrial insects and small forage species, and the stocked trout being larger and better suited for streams have a much easier time outcompeteing the bass. It may also be because when they are nesting in June, there are still many holdover trout that may be eating their eggs, but egg predation should be present even without the trout as well. One species that oddly has not suffered has been the Northern Hogsuckers, of which there are at least a dozen adults present at every large riffle and the fish average 8-14", I've caught a couple 15-16" fish too (and this is a smaller species that rarely grows over 12"!). This species is known to be very delicate and sensitive to both pollution and predation, so it still remains a mystery to me why the population is doing so well, as both are present to a degree. Perhaps when the trout attempt to spawn in the spring, the suckers are the first to eat the eggs? (Not that the eggs would hatch anyway). The day the Hogsucker population starts dwindling is when I lose all faith that the fish commission cares about native species, but hopefully that day never comes and they turn themselves around soon.

Char, some things about this don't make sense to me.

First off, stocked trout spawn in the fall, not the spring. Cept for some rainbows, but the PF&BC have developed a strain that is mostly a fall spawner to improve their own production.

So, trout eggs likely are not the answer to that.

There could be other reasons beyond what was already said. Maybe the stream itself is changing. Can't decided if suckers doing better is a sign of it getting better or worse.

Here is a related observation pertaining to Tionesta creek that I mentioned before. I have caught lots of smallmouth in it, and some quite large. But up in the ATW part, I have caught many trout, but only the the occasional SMB and even then it would be small. Oil Creek the same. Occasional small SMB. I attribute that to the fact I was targeting trout, but maybe they do impact SMB to more extent than I thought. Then again, where I have caught those SMB, I have also caught many trout that had been stocked upstream, so maybe it is something else. Fishing pressure?
 
Eccles wrote:


What, standing up and shouting "save the chubs" isn't going to make it happen? Dang, and I so thought it would.

I'm sure you and Troutbert are quite right about how to change the current practices.

Apparently it works for the Delta Smelt.

 
Afish, no one posting in this thread, with the exception of Mike (who can only make recommendations to the board of commissioners), can make any difference regarding the current stocking program. All anyone can do is yell.

Until some generations die off and my generation are the senior citizens will there be any chance of change. The change we can expect will be akin to what we see from the formation of the agencies til now. The younger generation is moving towards a conservation mindset, this mindset is evident on the hunting/wildlife side of outdoor sports.
Now there probably won't be the number of participants in outdoor sports in the future, but that's yelling for another thread.
 
Farmerdave, the PFBC stocks about 95% Rainbows in my creek and a good bit of them do try to spawn in the spring. Most don't live to see the fall spawning season, actually. If the Hogsuckers are thriving it is most certainly a good sign of improving water quality as they're almost as sensitive as Brook Trout and it's rare to find them in places other than spring feeder creeks!
 
Char_Master wrote:
Farmerdave, the PFBC stocks about 95% Rainbows in my creek and a good bit of them do try to spawn in the spring. Most don't live to see the fall spawning season, actually. If the Hogsuckers are thriving it is most certainly a good sign of improving water quality as they're almost as sensitive as Brook Trout and it's rare to find them in places other than spring feeder creeks!

Right, That is what I thought. And thanks for that additional info.

My first thought was that maybe the water is getting colder on average and improving which might favor species like hog suckers and even trout over SMB. But I don't know the creek so I measured my response by saying it could be "changing," rather than say it could be improving.

Note: I am not asking that you identify it, either.

I apologize for being all over the place with the post in question. But the reason it was is for the intent of generate further discussion.

I have observed similar on other large streams and gave a couple examples. Heck, who knows, one might be the same stream (don't answer that). I believe I have seen several hog suckers in both.

I think this is an interesting subject.

 
It may well be the water temperature. Last year, I did notice that holdovers thrived all through the summer and I caught them when sucker fishing all the way in to mid September. If the water keeps getting colder, with any luck some new cold water species may even move down from feeders to inhabit the main stream! I'll also agree that this is a very interesting subject, I could discuss it for days!
 
I've been catching more and more rainbows under 8 inches the last 4 years.
I'm starting to think they too might have figured out how to pour the bisquick to make pancakes.
 
BrookieChaser,
In an evaluation of nine streams' data for the Trout Summit, legal size Brook Trout abundance generally responded favorably to the cessation of stocking. The response was much better than when special regs were applied to wild brookie populations, so I stated in my presentation that the best way to improve wild Brook Trout populations (the legal size fish, that is) was to stop stocking over them. I either stated or assumed that it was understood that this would only occur, however, if the habitat was suitable to support additional legal size brookies. Not every population responded favorably to stocking cessation, but a high percentage did.

As for the Brown Trout response to stocking cessation, unlike Brook Trout, it was very mixed. Of the 40 streams tested, 20 experienced increases in legal size fish, 16 showed decreases, and 4 had no changes. As someone once quipped here: "It was a crap shoot," referring to what the response of a wild Brown Trout population would be in Pa when stocking was terminated.

I don't recall ever saying that competition was the driving force; in fact, I have presented evidence from Codorus Creek at times that would strongly suggest the opposite. So I believe what I have stated in the past is consistent with what I said earlier about scientific research as it relates to this topic: With respect to negative impacts of stocking over wild trout, evidence is not strong or consistent for the effects of competition; the most likely explanation is the effects of accompanying angling.

Please note, I am off today, so I am not responding during work hours in case anyone raises that question.
 
Great post Mike. It confirms what I have seen in my fishing experiences and what a lot of data show. Many studies have been done that demonstrate the high vulnerability of brook trout to stocking. One was presented at the 2002 PFBC Trout Summit. Why? Probably because stocking increases angling pressure in a big way. Unfortunately we stock in order to attract anglers (angling pressure). It's a vicious circle.

And what about stocking browns over brook trout? Studies presented at a commissioners meeting last fall showed that brookies are typically more than 10 times as likely to be harvested as browns. And yet PA continues to stock brown trout in streams with native brook trout populations. This flies in the face of efforts that are being made all over the USA to restore and preserve our native fishes. I know that the biologists don't make policy, only the commissioners can do that. And we now have several commissioners that seem to be totally convinced that increasing stocking is the way to increase interest in trout fishing. It seems to me that PA is swimming upstream.
 
Is it angling pressure, or the type of pressure (harvest vs c&r)? There are plenty of streams that get pounded hard year round (typically by c&r fisherman), and still have great populations.
 
That's in reference to streams/sections that aren't stocked.
 
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