Stocking a private stream?

[tabasco_joe]

I own woodland in central PA. There is a nice small stream that flows through the property that always has a cold, consistent flow. The lower end is blocked by a private dam so no trout migrate upstream. (The dam is off my property.) As far as I can tell on the PAFBC WEB site I can legally stock the stream. Was thinking of putting a few dozen brook trout in.

Does anyone know otherwise that it's legal?

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Before stocking brook trout, you may want to do some homework and consider your intentions. 1. Make sure if you purchase brook trout that they are certified gill lice free. 2. Consider your goals, ie long term holdover and or natural reproduction or seasonal recreational value? If you desire long term holdovers how warm does the stream get in the summer? 3. You may want to reach out to your pfbc regional fisheries manager to see if they have any recommendations.

 

[tabasco_joe]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Before stocking brook trout, you may want to do some homework and consider your intentions. 1. Make sure if you purchase brook trout that they are certified gill lice free. 2. Consider your goals, ie long term holdover and or natural reproduction or seasonal recreational value? If you desire long term holdovers how warm does the stream get in the summer? 3. You may want to reach out to your pfbc regional fisheries manager to see if they have any recommendations.

Got info on the gill lice.

The property has a number of springs which never go dry. So water temps rarely even get into the mid 60s.
My plan would be to put some fingerlings in and see how they survive.
There is a population of Dace, frogs, and much insect life.
Downstream its a feeder to naturally producing stream and all the other streams in the area are either class A or naturally reproducing.
So the water quality is fine.

Thanks

 

[jifigz]

tabasco_joe wrote:

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Before stocking brook trout, you may want to do some homework and consider your intentions. 1. Make sure if you purchase brook trout that they are certified gill lice free. 2. Consider your goals, ie long term holdover and or natural reproduction or seasonal recreational value? If you desire long term holdovers how warm does the stream get in the summer? 3. You may want to reach out to your pfbc regional fisheries manager to see if they have any recommendations.

Got info on the gill lice.

The property has a number of springs which never go dry. So water temps rarely even get into the mid 60s.
My plan would be to put some fingerlings in and see how they survive.
There is a population of Dace, frogs, and much insect life.
Downstream its a feeder to naturally producing stream and all the other streams in the area are either class A or naturally reproducing.
So the water quality is fine.

Thanks

If the stream is fed with springs and stays cold and, if as you say, other streams in the area have wild trout then why doesn't this one? Something is not right or there would already be wild fish there. If there are wild fish there, then my advice would be to not stock it and maybe just help th wild fish along. This could be done through enhancement projects of the habitat.

Otherwise, if no wild fish are there, I'd stock triploid rainbows.

 

[tabasco_joe]

jifigz wrote:

tabasco_joe wrote:

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Before stocking brook trout, you may want to do some homework and consider your intentions. 1. Make sure if you purchase brook trout that they are certified gill lice free. 2. Consider your goals, ie long term holdover and or natural reproduction or seasonal recreational value? If you desire long term holdovers how warm does the stream get in the summer? 3. You may want to reach out to your pfbc regional fisheries manager to see if they have any recommendations.

Got info on the gill lice.

The property has a number of springs which never go dry. So water temps rarely even get into the mid 60s.
My plan would be to put some fingerlings in and see how they survive.
There is a population of Dace, frogs, and much insect life.
Downstream its a feeder to naturally producing stream and all the other streams in the area are either class A or naturally reproducing.
So the water quality is fine.

Thanks

If the stream is fed with springs and stays cold and, if as you say, other streams in the area have wild trout then why doesn't this one? Something is not right or there would already be wild fish there. If there are wild fish there, then my advice would be to not stock it and maybe just help th wild fish along. This could be done through enhancement projects of the habitat.

Otherwise, if no wild fish are there, I'd stock triploid rainbows.

The area was logged off in the 1890s. The logging operations caused massive siltation which killed all the native fish in the area.
Soon after the logging the land was sold in plots for homesteads.
The first homesteader on the property below built a small milldam which isolated the stream.
My family bought the property at tax sale in the 1910s and owned it ever since. (I now own it with my brothers.)
So I'm familiar with the consistency of the stream and water quality.
The dam remains. In fact, raised by a recent owner.
The stream below the dam has wild trout.

As I mentioned there are Dace. But no trout.
It's certainly as large or larger than nearby streams which I've caught brookies from.
I think it would be better to put in brookies.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Not sure where your property is located, but if there are wild brook trout nearby consider catching some and relocating them to your stream. Spread your catch out so you aren't keeping all the adults that may be present in said stream section.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Ad jfigz alluded to, even with the dam present it is surprising if temp, we etc are good that trout haven't found their way back. Keep in mind the entire state was clear-cut and there are many wild brook trout populations in extreme headwaters streams above significant waterfalls that would have prevented upstream migration.

 

[tabasco_joe]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Ad jfigz alluded to, even with the dam present it is surprising if temp, we etc are good that trout haven't found their way back. Keep in mind the entire state was clear-cut and there are many wild brook trout populations in extreme headwaters streams above significant waterfalls that would have prevented upstream migration.

It holds trout below the dam. Haven't seen or caught a trout above the dam in 60 years. I haven't spent as much time there in the past few years but I used to spend a lot of time there.

I had thought about catching some in the next stream over and moving them but I'd like to put some fingerlings in. I don't think it's legal to remove fingerlings. The water just below the dam is posted so another impediment. It seems the easiest is to go over to a hatchery and get a bucket of fingerlings.

BTW, one of the reasons many of those streams hold trout above those waterfalls is that people would move trout above them. One of my grandfathers did a lot of that back in the early 1900s. They would take a special bucket with shoulder straps and catch some lower down and hike up to release. They would also take a railroad car with an open tank and go back along mountain streams and place brown trout in creeks. They did that along Penns to get it going after the saw mills quit.

 

[jifigz]

The survival rate of fingerlings is extremely low. If there are brookies nearby I think you're better off relocating some of the wild fish in nearby streams. So the area below you is posted.....so go to another area nearby with another stream and gather some brookies.

You mentioned siltation being bad and maybe that is why there is no wild trout there. I still think that since the fish aren't there it is a sign that something isn't right with the environment. I agree that trout would have likely found their way into this water regardless of the dam. Is it a monstrous dam?? Maybe pics would help. And, if the wild trout aren't there due to siltation, then I think relocating natives is a waste of your time. Unless those fish can spawn there and take off then the fish would be wasted. I think that it is very likely that the fish would be able to reproduce, however.

It seems that you aren't willing to share th stream name or the county, right?

 

[tabasco_joe]

jifigz wrote:
The survival rate of fingerlings is extremely low. If there are brookies nearby I think you're better off relocating some of the wild fish in nearby streams. So the area below you is posted.....so go to another area nearby with another stream and gather some brookies.

You mentioned siltation being bad and maybe that is why there is no wild trout there. I still think that since the fish aren't there it is a sign that something isn't right with the environment. I agree that trout would have likely found their way into this water regardless of the dam. Is it a monstrous dam?? Maybe pics would help. And, if the wild trout aren't there due to siltation, then I think relocating natives is a waste of your time. Unless those fish can spawn there and take off then the fish would be wasted. I think that it is very likely that the fish would be able to reproduce, however.

It seems that you aren't willing to share th stream name or the county, right?

The siltation was after lumbering 100 years ago. Not now.
The dam is probably 3 to 4 feet higher than the stream on the downside.

Be interested to have Mike's opinion on fingerling survival.
Assume the stream is fine. Simply cut off from upstream migration.

Union County. Headwaters in the upper Buffalo Creek watershed. I'm not getting more specific than that as we already have too many trespassers that damage property.

 

[wildtrout2]

If that dam is only about 3-4 feet high, would it not be conceivable for trout to get upstream during high water events? Something doesn't sound right.

 

[tabasco_joe]

wildtrout2 wrote:
If that dam is only about 3-4 feet high, would it not be conceivable for trout to get upstream during high water events? Something doesn't sound right.

The dam repairs and adjacent banks have been subjected to some poor engineering on the part of a previous owner. So when it floods it pushes water out the back of the impoundment across several acres of woodland before flowing back into the stream 100 yards below the dam. If it starts to cut a channel they simply fill it in.

I wouldn't say it's impossible for trout to swim up against that but unlikely. It's only a few inches deep except for the heavy winter melt. Anyway, no sigh any ever has.

 

[troutbert]

Hatchery brook have different genetics than wild brook trout.

So, if you want to try, the best bet would be to catch wild brook trout and put them in there.

But, as others have said, in NC PA if the conditions are right for wild trout, they are already there.

There MIGHT be an exception to that, but it would be extremely rare, if ever. I'm skeptical that such a situation exists.

In many places in NC PA, the far headwaters of some streams are so infertile, poorly buffered, that they are too acidic to support trout, or any other fish, and very few invertebrates. And that is true in some places in that area.

The upper part of Buffalo Creek, and upper part of Swift Run, for example.

 

[tabasco_joe]

troutbert wrote:
Hatchery brook have different genetics than wild brook trout.

So, if you want to try, the best bet would be to catch wild brook trout and put them in there.

But, as others have said, in NC PA if the conditions are right for wild trout, they are already there.

There MIGHT be an exception to that, but it would be extremely rare, if ever. I'm skeptical that such a situation exists.

In many places in NC PA, the far headwaters of some streams are so infertile, poorly buffered, that they are too acidic to support trout, or any other fish, and very few invertebrates. And that is true in some places in that area.

The upper part of Buffalo Creek, and upper part of Swift Run, for example.

The West Branch has some acid rain remediation at the headwaters. It's listed as natural reproduction. I've caught brookies below the BESF boundary both before and after the remediation effort. I'm sure it helps.

North Branch is listed as Class A and I've also caught wild trout there. Along with Panther Run.

Swift Run is a tributary to Middle Creek, a completely different watershed.

As I mentioned, plenty of dace, midges, and other aquatic life. And trout downstream. I'll test acidity on my next visit.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

It also sounds like your neighbor is breaking rules with their dam. Dams of that nature are typically not permitted on wild trout streams. You could report the dam to Conservstion District, pfbc regional office or DEP and perhaps it will get removed and brook trout will return on their own at no cost to you.

 

[troutbert]

tabasco_joe wrote:

troutbert wrote:
Hatchery brook have different genetics than wild brook trout.

So, if you want to try, the best bet would be to catch wild brook trout and put them in there.

But, as others have said, in NC PA if the conditions are right for wild trout, they are already there.

There MIGHT be an exception to that, but it would be extremely rare, if ever. I'm skeptical that such a situation exists.

In many places in NC PA, the far headwaters of some streams are so infertile, poorly buffered, that they are too acidic to support trout, or any other fish, and very few invertebrates. And that is true in some places in that area.

The upper part of Buffalo Creek, and upper part of Swift Run, for example.

The West Branch has some acid rain remediation at the headwaters. It's listed as natural reproduction. I've caught brookies below the BESF boundary both before and after the remediation effort. I'm sure it helps.

North Branch is listed as Class A and I've also caught wild trout there. Along with Panther Run.

Swift Run is a tributary to Middle Creek, a completely different watershed.

As I mentioned, plenty of dace, midges, and other aquatic life. And trout downstream. I'll test acidity on my next visit.

If there are dace, the pH is OK for brook trout.

 

[jifigz]

Let us know what you decide. Sounds like you've got your mind made up on your plan, more or less. It would be nifty if you brought some natives back and they began a self sustaining population.

 

[tabasco_joe]

jifigz wrote:
Let us know what you decide. Sounds like you've got your mind made up on your plan, more or less. It would be nifty if you brought some natives back and they began a self sustaining population.

I'm going to call the PFBC office in Bellefonte to get their thoughts.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I believe most of pfbc is still working remote, so don't be upset if they can't forward you to a biologist. I would recommend asking that they forward your contact info to the area fisheries manager.

 

[Canoetripper]

Like jifigz, in the above post, I would be interested in the results, and hope for the best.

I fish in water that is stocked with trout that hold over, but they don't reproduce. There are warm water species like smallmouth bass, chubs, fall fish, carp, perch, etc. already established.

I'm not a biologist, but I do think that the trout that do hold over through the winter are very different from when they were first stocked.