Spring Creek

[ryansheehan]

troutbert wrote:
If your theory was true, then streams that get very little fishing pressure would be filled with stunted, small fish.

And that's not the case at all. There is a reason why people go to such extremes to find places with very little fishing pressure. Think of Lee Wulff in his floatplane and people taking helicopters to remote areas in Russia and New Zealand.

Are they going these places to catch small, stunted fish? No, they are going there to catch big fish.

I haven't fished in such exotic places, but I have gone to some places in PA and the west that very few people fish. And the pattern is the same. "Big fish and lots of them." Not stunting.

The theory that wild trout populations "need" humans to keep the population down is totally wrong.

The evidence disproves it.

That proves nothing. So if I point you to the big trout on the Deleware or Holston that gets slammed does that mean that every crowded river has big fish, of course not.

I'm not saying that wild trout populations "need" humans to keep them down. I am saying that some streams will support large numbers of smaller fish, to say that's all based on pressure is incorrect.

 

[larkmark]

This creek used to have more fish of larger sizes. Since no one has pointed to anything else really significant changing it is not unreasonable to think that fishing pressure is the cause. I can tell you that about 30 yrs ago I was up on that canyon section on summer and could see down into many of the deeper pools and there were very good numbers of 18"+ trout. There are a few now but nothing like that. Once a fish reaches a certain size the stress of being caught takes a toll. Just think about the difference in how a large fish needs to be resuscitated much longer than a small fish after being caught and handled.

 

[jifigz]

You also have to factor in that Spring Creek used to be heavily stocked and received its last stocking in 1981. There is no doubt that thousands of stocked fish alter a stream and the wild trout that live there. I'd wager it would decrease overall levels of wild trout and lead to larger overall wild trout. I make this statement based on the stocked fish disrupting the system in a major way for a short period of time and then many of them dying off, being harvested, etc. So, intense competition by larger introduced fish would harm the smaller wilds, but as those stockies are harvested and depleted it would leave the larger wild fish that were less affected by the stockies.

Just a theory.

 

[flyguyfishing]

SC was recently discussed in another subforum.

http://www.paflyfish.com/forums/Open-Forums/Fly-Fishing-Locations/Spring-Creek-watershed-atlas/30,50923.html

SC Watershed Atlas
https://www.springcreekwatershedatlas.org

It is interesting reading. I shared a link regarding Status of Fish Populations. It includes survey results from 1980, 1988, 2000, and 2006.

https://www.springcreekwatershedatlas.org/post/2017/10/02/Status-of-Fish-Populations

My interpretation of the histograms is the amount of brown trout >350mm has not changed much. Section 4 does seem to have a decrease in >350mm brown trout. (Section 4 extends for 1.3 miles upstream of the W. Branch Rd. bridge in Lemont)

In my experience, there are fewer big fish in SC (fishing it since 1995).

I would think there is less water (?). Fishing pressure seems to have always been pretty high; there are historical pics of shoulder-to-shoulder fly fishermen at the paradise.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I often wonder how many large "wild" fish that people remember from decades ago were actually hatchery escapees... Several guys I know that fished around Fishermans paradise regularly in the late 70s to early 90s seem to recollect just as many big rainbows as brown trout. Also, while year round angling pressure is high now, I have seen too many pictures of anglers stacked shoulder to shoulder around FP and through the canyon to say that fishing pressure wasn't significant back then either.

 

[troutbert]

larkmark wrote:
Spring has been no kill for years and the actual habitat hasn't changed much. I can't speak to water quality. With all else being about the same the only thing I can think of that drastically changed was it now gets a heck of a lot more pressure. There were loads of fish back years ago but just way more medium and big ones. It was my favorite stream for about 20 yrs but when all the pressure increased and the fish got smaller that changed.

I agree that the physical habitat seems pretty similar.

(With the exception of the sections that were influenced by the 2 dams on lower Spring Creek that were removed.)

But anywhere above that, the habitat seems much the same to me. Does anyone disagree with that? Has anyone noticed significant physical habitat changes in Spring Creek over the years?

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

This topic was discussed at length a couple years ago but I realize some new members may be reading about Spring Creek for the first time.

I’ve been fishing Spring Creek with spinners since 6/11/83 and have fished it so much that I’m on a first name basis with the trout, so I think my observations might interest some of you.

There’s no doubt that the number of trout, say 12” and longer, has decreased. I believe this is attributable to many factors. I don’t claim to know the reasons but I have some ideas.

When did the number of large trout practically vanish in the stretch along the Benner Spring Hatchery, to say, a half mile below the Benner Spring Hatchery? It occurred when barriers were put in place to stop trout escaping from the hatchery. I don’t think this is a coincidence. Ditto the area below the hatchery across from Fly Fisherman’s Paradise. The number of large trout also nearly vanished in the section above Fly Fisherman’s Paradise to the lower end of the Rockville Penitentiary ground at this time, too.

Years ago (before the more recent decline in large trout) the section from the Route 550 bridge upstream to the posted section directly below Fly Fisherman’s Paradise was closed to fishing, for I believe, two years, until the PFBC bought it from the landowner. When re-opened, did this section have lots and lots of big trout? The answer is “No” so this makes you wonder if the population of big trout on Spring Creek would explode if there was no fishing pressure.

When the Rockville Penitentiary section (Spring Creek canyon) was officially opened to angling several years ago (this was after the decline in large trout had already occurred in general on Spring Creek) was this section stuffed with lots of 12”-plus trout? The answer is “No;” so this throws at least a little doubt in hooking mortality as the cause of more small trout and fewer big ones.

When I began fishing Spring Creek in 1983 and in the subsequent years I recall far fewer redds than I see now. I used to count the redds in the section above Fly Fisherman’s Paradise to the lower end of the now-former Rockville property and I usually counted about ten redds on a given autumn day in this entire section. Today there would be literally hundreds of redds in this section. One of the likely reasons for this is the decrease in the amount of silt in the stream. Dr. Carline lead a group who did major repairs in the upper Spring Creek watershed to stabilize the banks and they documented a decrease in the silt load and an increase in the numbers of redds in the years after this. If there are more redds there would be more small trout.

Do I believe hooking mortality is part of the cause? Absolutely. As already mentioned here by others, if trout are caught 6.3 times per year on average and hooking mortality is roughly 5%, each trout would have been caught about twenty times by the time they reach three years old, which is about the time they would be around 11” - 12”. On average it would take being caught about twenty times before each trout would succumb to hooking mortality, so that alone certainly would reduce the population of mature trout.

By the way, I measure all trout that I catch on Spring Creek against a grid of inch markers I have on my spinning rod and I write each trout down in a tablet. I have all of those tablets going back to 1979 when I started spinner fishing. Even years ago averaging 10” for a day of fishing on Spring Creek was not a given. Averaging 11” or more occurred almost never. So, when people talk about averaging 12” - 14” for a day on Spring Creek I would consider this to be dubious data unless they were fishing in a manner than eliminated small trout from their catch.

The one thing not mentioned yet is predation. How many Great Blue Herons spend their summers on Spring Creek today versus twenty years ago? My observation is that there are A LOT more herons now. Years ago I would guess that there was only a handful, if that. Today there are probably twenty or more. If each heron eats two 12” trout per day over a five to six month period they would put quite a dent in the trout population. Some live there all year, too. Also, GBH’s gather on Spring Creek each autumn prior to migration. I’ve seen as many as 75 at one time. They gather there for about a month before migrating. Just think how many trout they eat when they fly down from their roosts for breakfast. I believe this is a major cause of the problem. There are also bald eagles, ospreys, and more mink than years ago.

On a side note, someone mentioned about how it takes longer to resuscitate large trout so therefore more larger trout die from hooking mortality. Here’s what I think: If you have to resuscitate a trout you played it too long. Shame on you. I believe I’ve had to resuscitate two trout in the last 42 years.

Also, someone mentioned the high fishing pressure on Fly Fisherman’s Paradise years ago and suggested therefore that fishing pressure on Spring Creek has always been high. Not so. The fishing pressure on FFP is not representative of fishing pressure on the stream as a whole. In its day FFP was an artificial situation and drew in anglers similar (or worse) to how stocked trout draw in anglers today on other streams.

 

[TYoung]

I have my doubts about Frank's Heron theory. I don't doubt that there are more herons on Spring Creek than there use to be. My doubts are about the size fish that Herons tend to catch. On streams that don't have a lot of bigger fish, the bigger fish that do exist tend to live in places that are more difficult for predators to reach. With the amount of fishing pressure that Spring Creek gets, a trout's ability to avoid getting caught directly impacts how long it can live and how large it can grow. The best way for a trout to avoid getting caught by a fisherman or a heron is to live in water that a fisherman can't get its fly to, or a heron can't reach with it's beak. Basically, I'm saying that the bigger fish in Spring Creek tend to live in spots that are sheltered enough that a lot of herons wouldn't be able to reach them.

 

[jifigz]

Frank, good points and lots of historical data of your own compiling.

I love Spring Creek dearly and fish it several times a year. I always enjoy myself. With lots of access, lots of trout, and beautiful water and scenery it is a great trout stream. Just tailor your expectations and don't expect 18" brown trout. I find myself on Spring more than the other famous trout waters nearby just out of the convenience of it. I may have to go to State College for something and then it is easy to jump on Spring for a couple hours.

 

[Brown71]

Very good post Frank, lots of good info there.

I enjoy detailed record keeping also, but mine is more geared toward the bigger fish. I really think it’s cool the effort you go to track all that stuff. Thumbs up

 

[afishinado]

Good stuff by FrankTTA above.

Spring Creek is crowded, aka popular with anglers. While it's interesting to theorize why there are few bigger fish caught by anglers, maybe we shouldn't try to "fix" it. To what end? Make it more popular or less popular?

It's a stream where many anglers go and actually catch some trout without have to be a great FFer. They're not the biggest or wariest of trout, but they are trout just the same.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Board,

I definitely think there are fewer larger trout than 30 or 40 years ago in Spring Creek.

I have a theory that part of the problem is the stream carries 40% less water than it did when I started fishing it in the late 1970's. Anyone my age who fished the stream in the late 1970's should be able to relate to that. If you walk the Fisherman's Paradise section you can clearly see that streambed is significantly smaller in overall width and there is less depth in what remains.

If you stand on the Iron Bridge at the upper end of the hatchery across from the Stackhouse building there actually used to be an island in the stream and on the Stackhouse side the channel was 12 to 15 feet wide on the left side of the island, and 50 feet wide on the hatchery side.

Similarly, if you stand on the "new" bridge that enters the hatchery between the parking lots you can clearly see along the right bank where the old stream bed was. It was considerably wider in the late 1970's and carried 6 to 8 inches more water depth across the whole stream. On the left side as you look down the bank was full where undercuts remain today.

A lot of water has been lost to the 160,000 or more people that now call the Centre Region home. That is a 50% or greater increase in those 40 years. Compound that with the lost acreage to development and the subsequent hundred year floods that seem to occur 2 or 3 times a decade and it's not hard to connect the dots.

The late 1980's and early 1990's were the heyday for Spring Creek. The area was growing but slowly. My brother and fished it 30 to 40 days a season, and it was the rare day that one, or both of us didn't catch an 18" fish no matter the time of year.

Those days are gone, and to quote Janis Joplin, it's a combination of the two, many more people and not enough water.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[afishinado]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Board,

I definitely think there are fewer larger trout than 30 or 40 years ago in Spring Creek.

I have a theory that part of the problem is the stream carries 40% less water than it did when I started fishing it in the late 1970's. Anyone my age who fished the stream in the late 1970's should be able to relate to that. If you walk the Fisherman's Paradise section you can clearly see that streambed is significantly smaller in overall width and there is less depth in what remains.

If you stand on the Iron Bridge at the upper end of the hatchery across from the Stackhouse building there actually used to be an island in the stream and on the Stackhouse side the channel was 12 to 15 feet wide on the left side of the island, and 50 feet wide on the hatchery side.

Similarly, if you stand on the "new" bridge that enters the hatchery between the parking lots you can clearly see along the right bank where the old stream bed was. It was considerably wider in the late 1970's and carried 6 to 8 inches more water depth across the whole stream. On the left side as you look down the bank was full where undercuts remain today.

A lot of water has been lost to the 160,000 or more people that now call the Centre Region home. That is a 50% or greater increase in those 40 years. Compound that with the lost acreage to development and the subsequent hundred year floods that seem to occur 2 or 3 times a decade and it's not hard to connect the dots.

The late 1980's and early 1990's were the heyday for Spring Creek. The area was growing but slowly. My brother and fished it 30 to 40 days a season, and it was the rare day that one, or both of us didn't catch an 18" fish no matter the time of year.

Those days are gone, and to quote Janis Joplin, it's a combination of the two, many more people and not enough water.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

"I'd trade all my tommorows for a single yesterday." Janis Joplin ;-)

 

[larkmark]

Frank - Good info.
I first came to the paradise section as a teenager in 1970s. I came back many times over the years and explored many parts and tribs. I never averaged 12-14" but did have many that size and larger in an afternoon and evening of dry fly fishing on quite a few occasions in a section below the paradise that I regularly fished. I had several times that I caught two fish of 18' or so in an evening or morning down there. This almost always happened during the sulfur hatch. There were of course quite a few smaller fish thrown in. I rarely fished there other than during hatches, sulfurs, tricos and blue wings along with caddis and always used dry flies. The last 5 yrs or so when I went I caught all dinks with the exception of a nice 18' fish on a caddis down there. I may have to check it out again since I have not been over in a few years other than to drive through and just look. Many happy memories there with friends and family.
I do not really have an answer as to why fish are smaller. Just theories. I guess after reading everything here I still am thinking the increased fishing at least plays some role. I do not think herons or mink are the problem as they would tend to take smaller fish which should actually help things. I also do not think the fish I was catching were hatchery escapees. I do know what a wild trout looks like.

 

[dryflyguy]

I've been fishing Spring Creek almost 40 years now.
And would generally agree that the number of large trout has decreased.

Although oddly enough, I caught two fish in the 20" range last year.
They came from two of the larger, deeper holes in the stream - that also have good cover for fish to hide in.
Maybe giving some support to Tims theory of less water in the creek = less holding spots for large fish.

Of course, fish like that are pretty rare - almost anywhere.
Last time I caught something that big in Spring, was around 20 years ago.
And that was a hatchery escapee Rainbow

What really makes Spring Creek worthwhile to me though, is the steady fishing it provides
All those springs feeding it keep the water temps relatively stable during cold and hot weather.
I can go there at almost any time of year, knowing I have a good shot at finding risers.

Personally, I fish Spring mostly in early spring for the nice BWO hatch.
I would even argue that it's perhaps the best place to fish in the state right now, if hatches and rising fish are what you want.

Once we get into April and the Grannoms and Hendricksons start, I prefer to fish Penns and Little J. And generally do catch larger fish.

However, as someone already mentioned, Spring is often still fishable when most other streams are blown out from heavy rains.
And has saved countless fishing trips for me, when there was really no place else to go.
Catching smaller fish is still preferable to catching nothing or going home IMO

 

[bugs4]

The above post by Tim Murphy is spot on. There is simply a lot more "skinny water" than there used to be. We're sucking far too much water out of the ground to support the development that is occurring in the Centre region and inter valley areas.

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

Do the USGS water gauges support Tim's theory?

 

[flyguyfishing]

Not really. Tough to share here, but I choose monthly time series from gage in Axeman on SC. It produced a table with months as columns and years as rows. 1940, October to today. No trend apparent. Seasonality, yes.

I agree with Tim; I think there is less water. The official data does not support it though.

I agree with others of reduced amount of big fish. The data does not support this either.

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/monthly/?referred_module=sw&site_no=01546500&por_01546500_118935=1821078,00060,118935,1940-10,2021-02&format=html_table&date_format=YYYY-MM-DD&rdb_compression=file&submitted_form=parameter_selection_list

 

[gulfgreyhound]

I fished "the paradise" in the early 60's. Back when a dirt road ran past it and opposite of the paved path that is there now. I saw some big fish between the barbed wire that marked the area . There was no one there but me and I fished a short time just passing through. I really wanted to hook one of those big ones ,but I was amazed by their size. Like breeder fish in a hatchery. I'd guess that there may have been poaching back then and as times changed it was quantity over quantity/size that played into the management approach. I've been lucky enough to hit the Sulphur Hatch and did well on fish in the 10 to 12 inch range. I'd be interested in seeing any data from shocking surveys from the past 10? or so years. GG

 

[Mike]

I would recommend that the Paradise from its lower limit upstream to the first bend upstream from the parking lot at Stackhouse not be used to gauge whether there are more or less big fish in Spring Ck. That stretch of the Paradise artificially benefitted from stocked fish appearing there one way or another for years

Secondly, define big. Are you talking big in the general sense or big for Spring Ck? Big in the general sense for me in Pa is 18 inches or greater for wild Browns. Big statistically in Pa is 16 inches (1% of Pa’s wild browns) for wild Browns. Compared to the rest of the Spring Ck population and based on their infrequent occurrence in Spring Ck, I would say that going back as far as 1970 a 16 inch or longer wild Brown was uncommon, but occurred most commonly in some specific general locations. In other words, they could be found by fishing some specific areas consistently, but most of the stream did not provide suitable habitat for big fish. Furthermore, I am always surprised when the area below Benner Springs and into the now upper canyon area is referenced as big fish water. It is more typical of Spring Creek’s non-big fish water and it was never impressive to electrofish there as you tried to separate the relatively few trout from all of the white suckers. Additionally, that stretch has been subject to “stockings” by numerous hatchery fish over the years as a result of flooding of the hatchery.

Simply put, even going back to 1976, if you were specifically seeking big wild Browns and were in the know, you fished Logan Branch, Fishing Ck, or Penns Ck. Spring was not viewed in general as a very good big fish stream. As I said, however, there were some specific short stretches where there were reliably some Browns that were bigger than the norm, but Spring in general did not hold the promise of the others. That is not to suggest that the fishing was bad, you just had to be more interested in numbers. I thought that the most outstanding period was in the late 1990’s or early 2000’s when the abundance of wild Browns downstream from the Paradise that were between 11-13 or 14 inches was absolutely outstanding, or at least was so when one fished with bigger than normal trout spinners close to the banks when the stream was nearly chocolate brown.

The histograms referenced by someone else above plus the narrative that describes how many thousands, in total, of fish were electrofished from various locations in to find just a couple hands full of larger trout in Spring Ck pretty much say it all.