Sources for Stream Alkalinity Info?

[wildtrout2]

I wish they still included the T Alk on the class a lists

I still have the 2010 Class A Trout Streams list that I printed out, and it has the alkalinity listed for each stream.

 

[jeffroey]

Jeff,

i do not want to poo poo those kits that they sell, but they really do not get accurate enough results that you need to look at most wild trout streams (depending on where you are fishing) not to toot my own horn, but i am completing a 2 year long senior project of acid rain remidation of bowman's creek. I am seeing alkalinity number of 1-2 ppm / mg/l as CaCo3 (how we measure alkalinity)

If you really want to measure alkalinity you need to do a gran titration, adding acid to a water sample and then convert this to meq (mill equivalents) of CaCo3 in the water body. You are not measuring alkalinity but rather ANC (acid neutralization capacity).

those small kits have detection limits of 20 mg/l as CaCo3, and are often much higher than any of our streams at least in my region.

Hope this helps a little bit

Thx fishjake.

Good info. I appreciate your reply. I never intended to measure alkalinity streamside - I already pack in too much gear 🙂 - but instead I wanted to use the data already compiled by the PFBC for Class A streams and try to mine out meaningful trends.

I've been putting together a tool that allows me to score streams based primarily on geology and a habitat grading system that will simply help me zone in on the comparatively better (on paper at least) of a couple I might be scouting from the couch for the upcoming weekend.

Again, the goal here is to help me choose the better of, say three of four streams I'm plotting tracks for without any first or second-hand info on.

Tool is shaping up to look like this . . .


. . . and combines data from a couple different sources.

I'm still working thru some of my habitat grading criteria and weighting and still looking for meaningful trends but at the end of it, I'll have a stoplight chart that may help me decide if I want to drive to Sullivan County or Wayne County based on something that piques my interest.

I realize this will be a labor of love, likely won't be meaningful until there's enough cells populated with first-hand info, and may never result in anything valuable but it will at least support my goal of fishing new streams every year.

 

[jeffroey]

That pic was too long to turn out. Here's it cut in two:

 

[fishjake]

What type of type of acid rain remediation is being done now, or being planned?

And is some group still stocking Bowmans Creek up in the state gamelands? If so, do you know which group?

I fished up in the SGLs a long time ago, when it was unstocked. Then someone began adding limestone to the tributaries, then the group began stocking hatchery trout.

Currently we are only liming in a few locations on the stream, i am looking to add a few more locations this summer to the list, along with in the future going after future money with my position at ARM engineering doing the work on mosquito creek.

Currently only the PAF@B commission is doing stocking on the upper section of gamelands, i wish they would stop but i doubt that will ever happen. As far as i know they are the only ones who have ever stocked the stream.

 

[fishjake]

Thx fishjake.

Good info. I appreciate your reply. I never intended to measure alkalinity streamside - I already pack in too much gear 🙂 - but instead I wanted to use the data already compiled by the PFBC for Class A streams and try to mine out meaningful trends.

I've been putting together a tool that allows me to score streams based primarily on geology and a habitat grading system that will simply help me zone in on the comparatively better (on paper at least) of a couple I might be scouting from the couch for the upcoming weekend.

Again, the goal here is to help me choose the better of, say three of four streams I'm plotting tracks for without any first or second-hand info on.

Tool is shaping up to look like this . . .

View attachment 1641235022
. . . and combines data from a couple different sources.

I'm still working thru some of my habitat grading criteria and weighting and still looking for meaningful trends but at the end of it, I'll have a stoplight chart that may help me decide if I want to drive to Sullivan County or Wayne County based on something that piques my interest.

I realize this will be a labor of love, likely won't be meaningful until there's enough cells populated with first-hand info, and may never result in anything valuable but it will at least support my goal of fishing new streams every year.

well i can tell you that this is a really neat idea, you definitely have way way way more time on your hands than i do.

one of the things i will mention as someone who lives and works in NEPA and central pa is this


1: many of my favorite streams i have EVER fished are NOT known streams, they have SEVERE impacts to them, but yet hold some AMAZING fish, just take a look at one of my favorite brookie streams

i am sure that your spreadsheet would tell you not to fish this, despite it holding trout, a quick search online and you can see it holding fish, but defiently not a pretty stream.

2: you mentioned susquehannah county, many of these streams are in bad shape from acid rain and severe flooding. while the habitat score would be bad, the acid rain is REALLY hard to determine, taking me years to really quantify in bowmans.


I personally go about finding my new streams in a different manner, i use ARC gis and play with parameters until i get some ones to try and then go. To me i love finding the streams myself aswell.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Jeff, how are you populating the habitat parameters without seeing the stream?

Fishjake,
Most people aren't going to spend thousands of dollars on an Esri arcmap license unless their work or school pays for it.

 

[fishjake]

Jeff, how are you populating the habitat parameters without seeing the stream?

Fishjake,
Most people aren't going to spend thousands of dollars on an Esri arcmap license unless their work or school pays for it.

No i get it for the lincense, i forgot how expensive the license is, you can use Q gis for free, good software that is not that hard to use.

 

[jeffroey]

Jeff, how are you populating the habitat parameters without seeing the stream?

For streams I've been to I think populating all 11 habitat categories I'm currently grabbing should be obvious, even if they're a little more of a lagging measure vs. a leading assessment.

For new streams I'm considering, I think I can make an informed estimate for 7 or 8 of the 11 using digital resources that are available; many we talk about often: streamstats, arcgis (I particularly like the leaf off layers), PAFBC interactive maps, main stem stream gauges, etc. Beyond those, there's a few other info sources I rely on pretty regularly that may not be as obvious to many but have proven to be good, reliable info sources when assessing habitat.

Full disclosure, I'm still tinkering with how to best assess that piece of it (the habitat piece) to extract some leading (not lagging) value.

 

[jeffroey]

View attachment 1641235025
i am sure that your spreadsheet would tell you not to fish this, despite it holding trout, a quick search online and you can see it holding fish, but defiently not a pretty stream.

Probably very true but I probably wouldn't think to fish it driving by or picking it off a list either. Point is, unless you're going to PM me the name and put it on my radar, it will always be a dead lead. Nothing lost so to speak.

I'm just trying to put some critical thinking behind my otherwise blind guesses and I acknowledge it may pan out to not be worth it in the long run. I'm learning along the way so there's some utility.

Let's do this: I should have a few meaningful use cases captured by the end of this season on top of all the ones I've already fished and have notes on. I'll reach back by PM in October and we'll put your stream in the tool and see what it tells us. Understand if you don't want to give it up.

BTW, I grew up in Pittston. If that's the neck of NEPA this is in, there's a good chance I've fished it. 🙂

 

[fishjake]

Probably very true but I probably wouldn't think to fish it driving by or picking it off a list either. Point is, unless you're going to PM me the name and put it on my radar, it will always be a dead lead. Nothing lost so to speak.

I'm just trying to put some critical thinking behind my otherwise blind guesses and I acknowledge it may pan out to not be worth it in the long run. I'm learning along the way so there's some utility.

Let's do this: I should have a few meaningful use cases captured by the end of this season on top of all the ones I've already fished and have notes on. I'll reach back by PM in October and we'll put your stream in the tool and see what it tells us. Understand if you don't want to give it up.

BTW, I grew up in Pittston. If that's the neck of NEPA this is in, there's a good chance I've fished it. 🙂

i have a long list of streams that i would love to thrown into your calc, more just interested on how you are getting a # from it, as i myself am a engineer and find love in quantifying everything, as a engineer everything i do is for a reason and is quite methodical. Send me a note when its done and i will see if i can "break" it lol

 

[troutbert]

Some other layers to add to your GIS maps:

The PFBC wild trout layer.

The PFBC's layer of stream mileage that they stock.

The layer of stream mileage stocked by PFBC cooperative hatcheries IF that is available. Does anyone know if it is? I thought I heard something about this being published.

 

[jeffroey]

i have a long list of streams that i would love to thrown into your calc, more just interested on how you are getting a # from it, as i myself am a engineer and find love in quantifying everything, as a engineer everything i do is for a reason and is quite methodical. Send me a note when its done and i will see if i can "break" it lol

Every good software development effort needs a completely independent test team. Thank you for volunteering to be part of that team 🙂

Sometimes being an engineer can be a burden. It's one I've carried with me for over 25 years myself.