Small Stream Exploration Success Ratio

[Swattie87]

Be interested to see if the other small stream guy's experiences are similar:

I'd say about 75% of the small streams I've fished in PA, I'll never fish again. I call them "one and done's." Most have fish, and some even fish reasonably well, but the fishing experience doesn't justify the effort or more importantly, my limited time resource, in comparison to other options. The fun with these is exploring and trying new streams.

Roughly 20% I'd fish again, but aren't what I'd call destination streams. I won't specifically plan an outing around these. If I'm in the area, I'd gladly fish them again, but I won't necessarily go out of my way to do so. Many of these are simply convenient by location, in that I can get to them on a relatively short drive if I don't have a whole day or weekend to devote, or they’re in locations that I end up near a lot for one reason or another. Most of these I'd label as "good" streams.

About 5% are the really good ones that I'll specifically plan and schedule for. I'm willing to burn a day off from work to fish these in good conditions, and I usually budget about 5 days off each year just for that…to catch these streams in good conditions on short notice. If the drive is far enough, I’m willing to pop for a night’s hotel to fish these…that’s a good barometer if a stream is of this caliber in my book. In all honesty, there’s only perhaps a small handful of streams that I’ve found in PA that make this list.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

Swattie-

My percentages and comments are definitely in line with yours. Of the 20% streams that I'd fish again, I will add that weather may affect my decision to fish them more if water levels elsewhere are unfishable (Spring, Penns, etc.). Having some productive small streams in your back-pocket can really make/break a fishing trip where you encounter unexpected weather conditions and/or you know conditions suck but still need a trout fix like me. I would put my 5% up against the best known streams in this state and probably several neighboring states as well. My 5% require very long hikes and physical effort that most wouldn't be willing to put in. After a full day of fishing, hiking in/out, I need a day in the hot tub to recuperate. I wouldn't have it any other way though, and I'm still on the prowl trying to add to my working list

 

[afishinado]

Good topic. From a past thread on the subject I posted:

Thinking back on my exploring of new places, I would estimate if I identified and checked out ten potential fishing spots, five will be complete bust for various reasons like private with no access, no good water to fish, etc. Maybe three were fishable but I would not return because they were not very appealing or productive or fun to fish for various reasons. Out of ten places explored one or maybe two, if I'm really lucky, streams fished well, were enjoyable to fish, and are places I might return to fish again another day.

The numbers of decent wild trout streams found are also are on a sliding scale. Closer to Central PA region the higher the success rate, and further away the less likely to find a really good wild trout stream to fish.

 

[FarmerDave]

Swattie, back in the day I used to do this a lot, and my numbers are probably similar to yours. Bery few were busts. Getting out and exploring is never a bust to me.

Busts have to be big before I take notice. Wait, that didn't sound right.

But of all of the streams I have checked out, I probably only returned to 1 in 4 if that.

 

[sarce]

Good topic. I really like Afishinado's response about it depending on what part of the state you're in.

Growing up near Philly I fished local streams repeatedly even though they were rarely good. Then I went to PSU, and everything out there seemed amazing by comparison.

I have done an insane amount of exploring lesser known streams in central/northern MD this year, on top of fishing some more well known ones repeatedly for a few years before that. I have been putting together a list that groups them into categories based on fishing quality. It isn't PA but it does speak to what you're asking about.

I group them as follows (for MD WILD TROUT only):

Tier 1 - almost completely unknown, but also very, very good streams. This is basically my "do not name publicly, EVER" list.

Tier 2 - the well known, heavily pressured streams that are well deserving of their reputation. Gunpowder, Beaver, Big Hunting, etc. I rate them lower as a matter of personal preference not to fish in a crowd. population wise they are still tops in the state.

Tier 3 - okay streams with a stable population, or in rare cases a strong population but no big fish. I consider these a "success" when I find them - I keep them as backup options for floods on other streams, or if I want to fish several of these caliber streams in one day. These are ones I don't have an issue sharing unless they are on private land or someone else told me about them.

Tier 4 - marginal or transient population. Cool to know that there are a couple trout clinging to life in them, but not worth a return trip in any circumstance.

So to put numbers to these, and ignore Tier 2 because that's not what you're asking about:
Brown Trout:
Tier 1 streams: 6
Tier 3 streams: 15
Tier 4 streams: 12

Brook Trout:
Tier 1 streams: 7
Tier 3 streams: 8
Tier 4 streams: 13

There is some overlap for mixed brook/brown streams (7-8 streams or so). I rank their populations in each stream separately. And to get the full picture, add in about 10 more streams that I did not find any wild trout.

The half dozen Tier 1 streams for each species IMO make the effort of searching out unknown spots COMPLETELY worth it!

 

[PennypackFlyer]

Lot's of times I just go back for the scenery. Sometimes It's because there's a chance that something big is in that water hold and I have not figured out the correct presentation to lip snag the fish.

 

[wangdb]

I've been checking out some MD wild trout streams this summer and I'm wondering how to translate the flows and fishing conditions I experienced to a "normal" summer. Should I think of the Late July/August/September flows as more spring like? Do some of these small creeks in SCPA/Northern MD generally get pretty skinny and unfishable by the late summer/early fall? Should I anticipate a much shorter small stream season? What time of the year do you guy fish small streams and when are they the most enjoyable?

 

[Swattie87]

This year had a very good and extended small stream season thanks to all the rain. It’s basically been dialed in since mid May and still is now.

In a more normal year, the best small stream fishing IMO is generally mid May through mid July. Flows are generally decent, and small streams generally fish better in warmer weather. From mid July through August and September flows are generally lower than ideal for small stream fishing. 2016 for instance was a total bust during this time frame due to low flows. Most streams don’t actually dry up, but the fish become very spooky and hard to catch in the low, clear water.

Most years by mid July I’m warm water fishing unless I can chase some thunderstorms to bring flows up on the small Trout streams. If you time it right, you can get very good fishing though.

A lot of times you get a brief window of very good small stream fishing again in October once we begin to get more consistent rain again, and while it’s still warm before the spawn.

 

[afishinado]

I've been checking out some MD wild trout streams this summer and I'm wondering how to translate the flows and fishing conditions I experienced to a "normal" summer. Should I think of the Late July/August/September flows as more spring like?

In a normal year the stream flows are lowest July through September. This year has definitely been way above normal, record-breaking as a matter of fact

Do some of these small creeks in SCPA/Northern MD generally get pretty skinny and unfishable by the late summer/early fall?Should I anticipate a much shorter small stream season?

Yes, in many years the flows are very low and the water warms up in the smaller streams in the late summer and early fall. But in all but severe drought years there are headwater streams and spring-fed streams that still may fish well in PA. I cannot speak for your home state of MD, though.

What time of the year do you guy fish small streams and when are they the most enjoyable?

Spring most years provide the best fly-fishing. More insects are generally present and the flows and temps are often near ideal. But fall fishing as well winter fishing can be a lot of fun as well productive.

 

[FarmerDave]

I want to add to what I said earlier.

Of those streams that I did return to, I usually only fished them once or maybe twice a year, and not until May of June after the freezer fillers mostly went home.

And I never parked near one. That would be a dead giveaway.

There were no trout streams within 10 miles of where I grew up. Well, maybe there was, but barely. Not worth talking about.

So I figured, if I have to drive a ways, I might as well make a day of it.

 

[sarce]

wangdb,

The rain this year was pretty absurd around here, in a good way if you like small streams. Definitely do not expect that every year. 2016 and 2017 were polar opposites with very low and warm streams for much of the summer.

Typically the small stream wild trout fishing is unproductive starting around late June and continuing into late September. Catoctin Mountain streams, because of the elevation and better forest cover, are usually good until late July and start getting good again in mid September.

For mid summer MD trout fishing your best bet is the Gunpowder and Beaver Creek (or drive all the way out to Garrett County).

As for best time of year, Mid April to end of May is best for numbers of fish, but I've caught my biggest in September. I do most of my new stream exploration just before and after that best numbers window, and fish my favorite streams during prime time. Fall can be good but often the water is super low and clear, and you also have to miss a few weeks during the spawn.

 

[MKern]

The only issue I see with dismissing certain streams after one shot is that the variable could have been you, or weather, or flow, or time of year.

I have fished small streams and caught two fish even in peak spring season, but a month later caught over 100 when the water was high.

I think my biggest factor is time and how far I'm willing to drive.

I live in an area that has a ton of wild trout, but miss fishing for brookies in every little run-off stream.

 

[JasonC]

Interesting answers. One that sticks out is how the water gets better as you get closer to Central PA. Is this because of the generally mountainous terrain? Following that logic, would Eastern PA follow as the next best region due to the mountains? Again, interesting, and actually it’s what I expected. The streams that are documented and listed are there for a reason and a rational man would think to find a gem, it would take a whole lot of swinging and missing before you hit a homerun. I start my first scouting missing this weekend and I’m focusing on Carbon County, with a majority of tribs stemming from the Lehigh. I figure to start with one county and there’s a fair amount of listed streams I can fall back on if I strike out on some of the unlisted ones.

 

[Chaz]

I’d say my return ratio is over 90%. The reason is because I research the streams and just because it doesn’t fish well once doesn’t make me not want to fish it again. However I seldom fish any stream more than once a year.
There are streams that are really good that I have never returned to, bit would like to. I have no set rules and no longer keep a list, though I should. There are a bunch that I want to return to soon.

 

[Swattie87]

JasonC wrote:
Interesting answers. One that sticks out is how the water gets better as you get closer to Central PA. Is this because of the generally mountainous terrain? Following that logic, would Eastern PA follow as the next best region due to the mountains? Again, interesting, and actually it’s what I expected. The streams that are documented and listed are there for a reason and a rational man would think to find a gem, it would take a whole lot of swinging and missing before you hit a homerun. I start my first scouting missing this weekend and I’m focusing on Carbon County, with a majority of tribs stemming from the Lehigh. I figure to start with one county and there’s a fair amount of listed streams I can fall back on if I strike out on some of the unlisted ones.

Yes. Good strategy. You'll find even if you don't hit a home run every time, you'll still get on base and catch some fish on most outings. And certainly you'll learn every time out.

Carbon County is a good place to find wild Trout. Depending on where, it can be very rough and remote. Check your topo maps carefully, do your research on access options, and let someone know specifically where you'll be if you're fishing alone. Don't count on having cell phone service. The roughest streams in the state topography wise are in Carbon County. Good place to fish with a buddy - My standard Carbon County advice.

 

[JasonC]

I always let someone know where I’m heading to, even if it’s just Valley Creek and not remote wilderness, better safe than sorry. As far as the terrain goes, is it safe to estimate about twice the amount of time to cover what you usually cover on flatter terrain?

 

[sarce]

MKern makes a really good point.

A lot of my stats I posted are my reading of the stream from only one visit. If they aren't the smallest of the small streams and I only turn up one or no fish, I often give them another shot eventually, and in some cases had drastically different experiences. Other times I just confirmed they are duds. For this reason I try to consider the physical habitat of the stream and think hard about what the actual potential is compared to the fishing experience I had.

When you factor in the streams that had no trout, and the double-counted brook/brown streams, I think that puts my "success" (tier 1 or 3 streams) around or just under 50%. But it's important to note that I had years of exploring PA under my belt to help me make better choices here in MD.

To anyone going on their own adventure, I recommend planning to try at least 3 streams in one day. Odds are at least 1 will pan out.

 

[sarce]

JasonC wrote:

is it safe to estimate about twice the amount of time to cover what you usually cover on flatter terrain?

If on an established trail, that's about right for steep terrain. Off trail, I'd go more like 4 or 5 times the amount of time.

 

[Swattie87]

sarce wrote:

JasonC wrote:

is it safe to estimate about twice the amount of time to cover what you usually cover on flatter terrain?

If on an established trail, that's about right for steep terrain. Off trail, I'd go more like 4 or 5 times the amount of time.

+1

 

[troutbert]

JasonC wrote:
Interesting answers. One that sticks out is how the water gets better as you get closer to Central PA.

For freestone wild trout fishing, northcentral PA is better than central PA.