Slot Size Limit on Erie Browns

[bigjohn58]

Maurice wrote:
Yer right john but FI makes a good point about the fish returning in additional years. It would actually be a financial windfall to enhance a trophy fishery.

Fish stocked at 9-12 inches, returning in the 20"-30" class after a few few years is not a bad return on investment. Guaranteeing yhey get the chance protects the investment.

Thanks for the insight I always thought it was that way. I'm all for catch and release of all fish I catch except through the ice I do like some panfish!

 

[afishinado]

Mango pie aside :-( (who would actually eat a mango pie?!)

The fingerlings are stocked as close to the lake as possible, but I read somewhere that many of the trout stocked are harvested by trout fishermen before they ever get a chance to migrate to the lake. Maybe C&R or raising the size requirement for harvest in the streams stocked with browns would help to increase the amount of browns returning.

There is a meeting in Erie to discuss trout management in Lake Erie as well as the overall trout plan going forward. Someone may want to ask the fisheries biologist about the return rate of browns from the lake to the tribs and if a slot limit would appreciably increase the amount of older fish that return to the tribs.

Trout Plan Meeting

 

[FarmerDave]

Maurice wrote:
I think the idea is to return the 4-5 lbers so they become 10's.

Jeff F said doritos.

And its not a Stocked fishery per see, its a put - grow- take fishery both for the steelhead and browns. And its not and ATW with thermal issues since its connected to the lake.

So the doritos comment don't cut it unless unless they start stocking those fish at the adult size.

Its apples and oranges. Once you understand that you can begin to consider improvement.

Stocked at 9"
Yr 1 return 16-20"
yr 2 return 25-30"
yr 3 return 30+"

You don't see alot of the 30"+ but the 25"-30" fish are many. They are returning a second year.

You could do that for the browns too.

1. That is the size of the returning fish at that age, but I'd argue the q year aren't spawning,

2. It doesn't mean they actually return every year.

3. And what I was saying is that I believe the chances of a 25+ inch fish getting caught and released in a lake Erie tributary ... returning AGAIN are fairly low, and not all from fishing pressure. It's certainly true for the steelhead at least. We would like to think that most that are released will return to spawn again, but I'm betting the survival of spawned out 25+ inch fish is fairly low.

4. Explain how a slot return of fish between 18" and 28" (for example) would be all that different from just raising the minimum size to 28?"

F. You are right, it was Jeff F.

If'n I wanted to keep a steelhead to eat, I'm a thinkin 18" would be about perfect size. Better tasting and less polluted. Unfortunately I seem to only catch the larger ones. ;-)

Easier to floss I guess.

 

[afishinado]

Here is an article about Erie browns I found. It's a few years old, but has a lot of good info:


Thursday, I joined a group of volunteers from the Pennsylvania Steelhead Association to help clip brown trout adipose fins.

The water was cold, and the trout were slippery and uncooperative in spite of being sedated. Yet, the group did its part in helping the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission with its new Lake Erie brown trout program.

I asked Mike Hosack, fisheries biologist for the Lake Erie Research Unit, about the purpose of clipping the fins.

"We can evaluate how well the fishery is doing," he said.
Fin clips identify the origins of brown trout. Trout that will be stocked by cooperative nurseries have the adipose fins clipped. Brown trout that will be stocked by the Fish and Boat Commission have either the left or right ventral fins clipped.

These markings identify brown trout that are caught in sample catches, are reported by anglers, are caught in open lake assessments and some are caught in gill nets that are used to sample yellow perch.

Length and weight measurements, and fin clips are noted for brown trout that are caught when steelhead brood stock is being collected.

Co-ops stock differently than the Fish and Boat Commission. The Fish and Boat Commission stocks its brown trout during fall. Co-ops stock during spring with older and larger brown trout. This leads to superior survivability.

"Our brown trout, I hope we'll start stocking in the spring so we get a better return," Hosack said.

The current brown trout program for Lake Erie started in 2009. The goal is to annually stock 900,000 steelhead and 100,000 brown trout. Unsuccessful attempts to develop a brown-trout fishery in Lake Erie have been made in the past in Pennsylvania and New York.

The previous time a brown-trout fishery in Lake Erie was promoted by our Fish and Boat Commission was when a special strain of brown trout, called the seeforellen brown trout, was stocked.

If my memory is correct, this was done in Pennsylvania and in New York.

Seeforellen brown trout came from a specific lake in Europe. This strain was noted for growing to exceptionally large size. But they never amounted to much in Lake Erie.

Asked why do it again, Hosack said, "We decided to do this because we were already seeing an increase (in brown trout) in our gill nets even before we started stocking."

Those brown trout might have been stocked in New York.

Unlike steelhead, brown trout do not imprint the streams where they were stocked or hatched.

Changes in Lake Erie might allow brown trout to thrive now.

"The lake ecology has changed," Hosack said.

He pointed specifically to the invasions by zebra mussels and round goby. The round goby is a major diet item for brown trout.

So far, the results of the brown trout program are promising.

"We're already seeing that the fishing is improving," Hosack said.

In order for a brown trout fishery to develop in the Eastern Basin of Lake Erie, it will be important that more anglers target them.

Up to this time, nearly all of the brown trout caught from the Eastern Basin have been caught by anglers who were targeting other species.

Several were caught during the steelhead run, which is winding down. One angler reported catching a couple this past week at Elk Creek.

Brown trout should be well- suited to Lake Erie.

Unlike other members of the trout/salmon group, brown trout seem to prefer water that is no more than 100 feet deep.

They will suspend, but they seem to be more inclined to relate to bottom structure than other trout or salmon.

In the Eastern Basin, this would limit them to a relatively narrow strip of the lake that is within 3 miles to 6 miles from the shore.

With their preferred habitat limited to this area, anglers who target them do not need to search through as much water as anglers who target walleye, steelhead or lake trout.

MIKE BLEECH can be reached by e-mail at mikeb73@verizon.net. Read more of his columns at nwpaoutdoors.com.


Link to source: http://www.goerie.com/article/20130428/NWPAOUT10/304289884/mike-bleech-a-touch-of-brown-trout

 

[Maurice]

FarmerDave wrote:

Maurice wrote:
I think the idea is to return the 4-5 lbers so they become 10's.

Jeff F said doritos.

And its not a Stocked fishery per see, its a put - grow- take fishery both for the steelhead and browns. And its not and ATW with thermal issues since its connected to the lake.

So the doritos comment don't cut it unless unless they start stocking those fish at the adult size.

Its apples and oranges. Once you understand that you can begin to consider improvement.

Stocked at 9"
Yr 1 return 16-20"
yr 2 return 25-30"
yr 3 return 30+"

You don't see alot of the 30"+ but the 25"-30" fish are many. They are returning a second year.

You could do that for the browns too.

1. That is the size of the returning fish at that age, but I'd argue the q year aren't spawning,

Actual age would be +1 to what I listed...I don;t understand the rest but No its not intended for them to spawn.

2. It doesn't mean they actually return every year.

I have it on pretty good authority that they return better when released than they do roped. They just don't survive in smokers.

3. And what I was saying is that I believe the chances of a 25+ inch fish getting caught and released in a lake Erie tributary ... returning AGAIN are fairly low, and not all from fishing pressure. It's certainly true for the steelhead at least. We would like to think that most that are released will return to spawn again, but I'm betting the survival of spawned out 25+ inch fish is fairly low.

Keep the 25-30's Its the smaller ones returning after year 1/2 that you release

4. Explain how a slot return of fish between 18" and 28" (for example) would be all that different from just raising the minimum size to 28?"

Just raise it to 20 or 23...

I didn't read the proposal for slot limit. I am only arguing that allowing the fish a chance to return multiple years through harvest restrictions increases their likelyhood of getting bigger more than not applying harvest restrictions. Every dead brown trout will never get bigger.

F. You are right, it was Jeff F.

If'n I wanted to keep a steelhead to eat, I'm a thinkin 18" would be about perfect size. Better tasting and less polluted. Unfortunately I seem to only catch the larger ones. ;-)

Easier to floss I guess.

 

[FarmerDave]

Maurice wrote:
Actual age would be +1 to what I listed...I don;t understand the rest but No its not intended for them to spawn.
Yea, I knew that, but I miswrote. Also a typo or two in there. I apologize and forget about it. I think we are getting someplace, so lets cut through the crap and get to the points.

The suggestion at the link said "slot limit" and provided no explanation or detail. I wouldn't even call it a proposal.

Slot limit traditionally means you can keep fish in the slot and must release the rest. That might work for long lived fish like red drum, or fish in a small impoundment prone to overpopulation (e.g. largemouth bass in a farm pond) , but it likely will not achieve the desired effect on steelhead or lake run browns in a system as large as lake Erie. I could be wrong.

On here it was also suggested that what he might have meant was a slot exclusion.

In other words, you can only keep fish outside of that slot. Lets say 18 to 24 inches for argument sake.

How would that be more effective than just raising the minimum size limit to 24 inches? I'd argue that it is less effective.

How does it improve the return rate of a 17.75 inch fish that was put on a rope?

I would have no issue with simply raising the minimum size limit.

The other argument that I made way to confusing is this. It's obviously true that a released 18 inch lake run trout has a reasonably good chance of returning another year than a smoked 18 inch trout.

A released 28 or 30 inch? Only slightly better chance than the smoked trout.

So, to conclude...

Slot limit? I can't agree without seeing science to support the idea. These are not red drum and it is purely artificial fishery anyway.

Slot exclusion? Ehhh? Just raise minimum size. It's simpler and if slot exclusion will be effective, raised minimum size should be even more effective. Certainly no worse.

 

[krott243]

Not all browns stocked in Erie are for the taking. PFBC stocks Elk and 20 mile prior to the trout opener with browns. The majority of these fish are caught and kept by trout anglers or gobbled by the spring walleye. It wasn't till a few years ago Erie developed another brown trout stocking program with smaller hatchery raised browns that I have personally seen stocked at all times throughout the year. These fish are raised primarily by 3CU with no funding from the PFBC, the PFBC does help in the stocking of these fish allowing the use of their trucks and services. (Support 3CU and donate a buck if you can) A slot limit size or minimum size implemented is not directed to improve natural reproduction of these fish but to allow them to grow to a trophy size fish without being killed in the first years of their lives. Too many return browns are being killed between 16-24 inches, I see it all the time.

 

[dano]

Taken from nagy's blog:
http://www.johnnagysteelheadguide.com/

During a recent steelhead brood stock assessment at Trout Run nursery waters by the PF&BC (November 2014) brown trout were also examined and had length modalities (groupings) of 11-17”, 20”, 20-24” and 29”. An open lake gill net assessment of Lake Trout by the PF&BC (August 2014) also collected data on brown trout. It showed and average size of 6.9 lbs. (no jacks examined), with the largest brown at 15.9 lbs/31.6”.

The 2014 PF&BC’s Angler Award Program showed four of the top five browns caught in the state were caught on Lake Erie tributaries (all over 10 lbs. and all caught on flies) with the largest brownie an impressive 16 lbs., 6oz. taken out of Erie’s 16 Mile Creek last November.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

Maurice wrote:

troutbert wrote:


"When you take a trout out of a stream, it's not in there anymore."

Who said this?

Paraphrase from this :
“The fish you release maybe a gift to another, as it may have been a gift to you.”
?Lee Wulff
Read more at http://izquotes.com/author/lee-wulff

 

[gulfgreyhound]

What i know about the NY brown fishery is limited. That said those fish spawn? and return to Lake Ontario. As far as smolts the State would have to answer that. I know most get to warm in the summer trout to live.
I've caught some wall hangers in the tribs along with fresh,green, salmon and landlocks. The drop back is usually in late Feb. and March. Never made it up for that, but it's supposed to be great.
GG

 

[Chaz]

They are stocked fish, PFBC will make more. It's what they do.
But on the stocking side of things, they should be restoring native species, not throwing in browns and western salmon.

 

[wbranch]

Salmonoid wrote;

It is a contrived steelhead and brown trout fishery to begin with.

I agree 100%. I do quite well on my 2 - 3 steelhead trips to Erie County every November but everyone could do much better if the daily bag limit was dropped from three to one. I really believe some of the guys I see killing three steelhead everyday probably need them for the table. However how many steelhead would anyone even want to eat considering they likely aren't the most healthy fish.

Probably the bag limit would never go to one steelhead or brown but changing it to two a day (not two and then go back to the car and drop them off and come back for two more) The PA creeks are very small by the standards of most steelhead rivers. If Elk gets a return of say 20,000 adult fish and many anglers are keeping three a day it doesn't take long to really deplete the fishery.

I've not been fishing Erie for more than 7 or 8 years but I remember during the first 2 - 3 years I caught many more 24" - 28" fish than I am catching now. Most of the fish I'm catching are 21" - 23" with and every once in awhile a 25" - 27" fish. In my opinion the steelhead are coming in once, maybe twice at the most, before they are being caught and kept. The increased popularity of the fishery with the resultant more fish being killed is a detriment to fish living long enough to attain those larger proportions.

 

[FarmerDave]

They stock too many steelhead as it is, so I suppose reducing the creel limit to 2 fish would allow them to reduce the stocking numbers by 1 or 2 percent without it being noticed. ;-)