Six Pound Test Fluorocarbon

[Silent Ocelot]

I've found that even with fluorocarbon, light tippets (6X - 8X) will float regardless just because they aren't really dense enough to break the surface film. When you get to 5X and heavier it's more likely they will sink.

The other thing is your tippet picks up residual skin oils and at least when I am fishing a real silk line which I dress with a paste floatant or use a thread furled leader which I similarly dress, it is about impossible to keep the paste floatant off of my tippet. That's why I usually resort to "sinking" tricks even for a fluorocarbon tippet if I encounter a particularly fussy fish.

In regards to suppleness and drag free surface floats with fluorocarbon versus nylon. I don't use store bought leaders but prefer to build my own. For dry fly fishing and SOME subsurface fishing it is usually a thread furled leader or woven silk leader to which I add transitional sections and a tippet.

Maybe I'm a genius but I have the proportions of my forward sections down to a science. When I deliver the fly I impart a tiny bit of oomph to the forward cast and stop it short so it kicks back slightly and makes gentle curves in the forward sections & tippet.

I've been doing this tactic and getting excellent results forever without a George Harvey or other specialty leader or using nylon.

It just what works for me...

The leader is probably the most important aspect of fly delivery (speaking for components). That's neat that you have a very specific formula for building leaders. One thing I love about this sport is you can go to F1 levels of tuning your equipment to optimize it for a specific style of fishing.

I don't build my own leaders. I mostly indicator nymph so almost any leader will do as long as it can turn over the rig. I've used bonefish leaders this year just because I had them laying around from a leader lot I bought off marketplace. These are 12ft 10-12lb.

I think one thing I need to do this year is getting into leader building, primarily building a good dry leader that is stout in the back portion but loose towards the tip. I would like to examine your leaders if possible to get an idea of what I need to do.

 

[salmo]

Thanks all.

 

[KeviR]

Thanks for the feedback and recommendations. I ordered a couple of spools of Seaguar Grand Max and will try it out. I want it to work, since the last time I used fluoro for nymphing, I saw its potential.

 

[KeviR]

So my order of Seaguar Grand Max arrived from the UK finally. I chose this because it seemed like it was the premium Seaguar product. And it seemed like the consensus was that Seaguar was the best brand.
I spent a few hours trying it out at the bench. I tried several different knots and a few variations here and there on some of the knots. I couldn't find one that gave me a 100% knot even once. (What I mean is, I tie the knot, then pull the line until it breaks. If it breaks somewhere other than at the knot, that says it was a 100% knot.)
Then I went further - I compared it to my go-to leader material, Stroft GTM.
The knot I have used for years and I can tie it very repeatably is the Pitzen or 16-20 loop. It seemed to be about the best one among the many I tried with the Seaguar material. So I used that to compare Stroft to Seaguar Grand Max.
I compared them in 7X.
The Seaguar Grand Max 7X lists a diameter of 0.113mm which is 0.0044", so it is actually about 6.6x. I measured both materials with a caliper, which is not super precise, but they both measured as I expected - the Stroft was 0.004" and the Seaguar was 0.0045". (Near as a caliper can tell.) Seaguar lists a pull rating of 3.5lb. Stroft has a rating of 3.1lb. So the fluoro is a bit stronger, but bit bigger diameter, too. So not surprising. I didn't try to measure the rated breaking strength, but maybe I will at some point.
The way I compared them to each other was to tie them to opposite sides of the eye of a size 12 fly and then pull on both tippets until one broke. Now I know a size 12 fly is not normally used with a 7X tippet, but I use tippet rings and they are even thicker wire, so if the material has a problem with heavy wire, it would be a problem for me anyway. (One of the benefits of the Pitzen knot is that it does well with this scenario - fine tippet tied to thick wire. That's one of the reasons I use it.)
I ran 10 trials of the two tippets against each other. I went further - after one of them broke, I then held the fly and pulled on the survivor until it broke, just to see what happened.
So what were the results?
The Stroft won every time - 10 out of 10. And when I followed up and broke the surviving tippet, it was a 100% knot about half the time. (I try to shoot for 100% more often than that, so I must be slipping.)
So in spite of the fact that the fluoro was thicker and rated stronger, it always was weaker than nylon of the same (approx) diameter.
Many people say something like "I have used xxx tippet material with yyy knot and I've never had a problem with it". The problem with this kind of observation is that they have presumably learned how much pressure they can put on a fish with any given tippet diameter. (If they have learned to live with their system.) But they have to use heavier tippets than they could if they were able to tie a stronger knot. I pride myself on being able to push (pull??) my leader to the limit. I want to be able to horse fish if necessary. Sure, I don't need to for the average fish, but if I hook a 20+ fish that's headed for a log jam, I want to be able to lay some wood to him and turn him back. Wimpy knots don't allow that.

 

[caddisflyer]

I find it hard to believe that anyone does fine using 5 x and fishing a size 24 trico.
I mainly fish 6x fluorocarbon using small dry flies, especially from June on. Much of my fishing is for pressured wild fish. Tricos I use 6 and 7x. Larger flies I go 5 and 4x and use regular tippett just because I do not carry it in fluoro. I cannot say for sure that fluoro is better but I will take every advantage I can.

 

[joebamboo]

So my order of Seaguar Grand Max arrived from the UK finally. I chose this because it seemed like it was the premium Seaguar product. And it seemed like the consensus was that Seaguar was the best brand.
I spent a few hours trying it out at the bench. I tried several different knots and a few variations here and there on some of the knots. I couldn't find one that gave me a 100% knot even once. (What I mean is, I tie the knot, then pull the line until it breaks. If it breaks somewhere other than at the knot, that says it was a 100% knot.)
Then I went further - I compared it to my go-to leader material, Stroft GTM.
The knot I have used for years and I can tie it very repeatably is the Pitzen or 16-20 loop. It seemed to be about the best one among the many I tried with the Seaguar material. So I used that to compare Stroft to Seaguar Grand Max.
I compared them in 7X.
The Seaguar Grand Max 7X lists a diameter of 0.113mm which is 0.0044", so it is actually about 6.6x. I measured both materials with a caliper, which is not super precise, but they both measured as I expected - the Stroft was 0.004" and the Seaguar was 0.0045". (Near as a caliper can tell.) Seaguar lists a pull rating of 3.5lb. Stroft has a rating of 3.1lb. So the fluoro is a bit stronger, but bit bigger diameter, too. So not surprising. I didn't try to measure the rated breaking strength, but maybe I will at some point.
The way I compared them to each other was to tie them to opposite sides of the eye of a size 12 fly and then pull on both tippets until one broke. Now I know a size 12 fly is not normally used with a 7X tippet, but I use tippet rings and they are even thicker wire, so if the material has a problem with heavy wire, it would be a problem for me anyway. (One of the benefits of the Pitzen knot is that it does well with this scenario - fine tippet tied to thick wire. That's one of the reasons I use it.)
I ran 10 trials of the two tippets against each other. I went further - after one of them broke, I then held the fly and pulled on the survivor until it broke, just to see what happened.
So what were the results?
The Stroft won every time - 10 out of 10. And when I followed up and broke the surviving tippet, it was a 100% knot about half the time. (I try to shoot for 100% more often than that, so I must be slipping.)
So in spite of the fact that the fluoro was thicker and rated stronger, it always was weaker than nylon of the same (approx) diameter.
Many people say something like "I have used xxx tippet material with yyy knot and I've never had a problem with it". The problem with this kind of observation is that they have presumably learned how much pressure they can put on a fish with any given tippet diameter. (If they have learned to live with their system.) But they have to use heavier tippets than they could if they were able to tie a stronger knot. I pride myself on being able to push (pull??) my leader to the limit. I want to be able to horse fish if necessary. Sure, I don't need to for the average fish, but if I hook a 20+ fish that's headed for a log jam, I want to be able to lay some wood to him and turn him back. Wimpy knots don't allow that.

Seems like you’re making fly fishing way too complicated.

 

[pcray1231]

For me, it's about drag, not line size. But yes, smaller diameter is one way to reduce micro drag, for sure, and may be needed on smaller flies. I've never been a 7x guy for anything really, but find 6x necessary on midges, tricos, and the like.

Your tests are all about strength and diameter. I care about strength a little, diameter not so much. To me the most important thing in a line is suppleness. Diameter certainly plays into that but ain't the only thing. Rare, but if a thicker tippet is more supple than a thinner one, I'll take the more supple one. And that's why generally I think mono's are superior to fluoro for dry fly work especially in smaller sizes, they tend to be more supple, but that's only a general statement and yes there's overlap. The huge advantage of fluoro is abrasion resistance for me. When deep nymphing it doesn't get nicked on rocks as easily, shot doesn't mess it up as bad, and it helps on toothy critters too. Disadvantages are it tends to be less supple, and, it sinks, which is only a disadvantage on dries, really, and can be a slight advantage on sub-surface stuff. Mono also stretches, which is good for fighting big fish, but if you want fluoro tippet you can get the stretch built into the leader with mono and use a fluoro tippet. I would not want a fully fluoro leader from butt to tippet due to lack of stretch.

A test for suppleness I've done is cut off equal lengths of the tippets to be compared, a few inches is fine. Afix 1 end of each in a vise. How does the other end hang? And grab that end and move it around. You can tell which is stiffer. Stiff is bad. The very reason we go to finer tippets on small flies is to reduce the stiffness, and thus reduce drag. So if going thinner doesn't reduce the stiffness, it didn't help.

 

[KeviR]

Sees like you’re making fly fishing way too complicated.

I hear what you're saying. I'm an engineer, in case you couldn't tell.

 

[bigjohn358]

ANYONE who says flurorcarbon is tuff stuff I will not believe. I learned to use it nymph fishing and I found a brand that works for me for trout. I've used probably over a dozen types of flurorcarbon line and tipets for trout fly fishing and I've found 1 that works for me. When I used it for bass fishing it is the weakest stuff out there as far as my lines are concerned. I have one brand I have somewhat faith in for bass. I think the lack of stretch is part of the problem. Snagged on a rock and give a jerk...it breaks. Set the hook on a fish...breaks. Throw a cast with a heavier lure or fly...breaks. I always hear about abrasion resistance and flurorcarbon but to me thats a joke. I really do not know how pro bass anglers use it but they all seem to. They obviously fish differently than I do when setting the hook or getting stuck.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

Look all I know is Cortland tells me their fluorocarbon is stronger than other brands when comparing similar diameters, so I I buy it.

I know some people say it's a good idea to use fluorocarbon with dry flies as the line will sink a bit and eliminate the shadow that line sitting on the surface will have. I don't think using fluorocarbon will sink a dry fly, I have hung 3mm beaded droppers off of size 12 caddis and it floated throughout the day.

@pcray1231 makes a good point about suppleness. I think that is a more important than abrasion resistance. Just my opinion. I actually like the fact the fluorocarbon is less supple so that is has an ever-so-slightly less ability to tangle. Obviously this ability to tangle less doesn't matter when getting down to say size 6X. I think the reason people like myself and others like fluorocarbon is because it is denser and therefore sinks faster. This helps in achieving depth ever-so-slightly faster. Of course this faster sink rate of fluorocarbon is pointless when using flies of a certain weight and/or density. I like the lack of stretch in fluorocarbon as this aids in strike detection as well as hook-setting (I need all the help I can get with hook-setting).

At the end of the day we all have our reasons for why we use what we use and they are valid, unless one thing can be without a doubt objectively better than another thing. If anything I have more respect for nylon than I did before.

 

[wgmiller]

I've tried about every kind of tipet material out there and I keep going back to Berkley Vanish for trout. I use 6 pound vanish when the water is higher and off color or around heavier cover. 4 pound Vanish is my main nymphing line. When things get super low I go down to 2 pound Vanish. Now when it comes to bass fishing I will not use the Vanish. I've been using P-Line Shinsei for bass and everything bigger than trout.

Yep. I reload the larger Maxima leader wheels with Berkley Vanish fluoro in 2, 4, and 6 pound test. The 250 yard Berkley spools last forever and it's far cheaper than buying fly fishing tippet. I haven't noticed a decline in my hookup rate and snap-offs are rare. I use the material for the terminal end on my tightline rigs and tie in a dropper with a double or triple surgeon's knot. Again, no issues. The visibility issue has been been beaten to death and quite honestly, I think far more important than WHAT type of material you are using is what does your drift look like? Presentation, presentation, presentation!!! Berkley Vanish 4 pound is also my main nymphing material of choice.

I do use nylon or mono for dry flies, but there again, Maxima seems to work well for me.

 

[caddisflyer]

I use 5 pound test Sunline Fluoro on my trout spinning rod.

 

[Kyle]

tippet for trout.
flurocarbon leader material for everything else.

 

[bigjohn358]

Yep. I reload the larger Maxima leader wheels with Berkley Vanish fluoro in 2, 4, and 6 pound test. The 250 yard Berkley spools last forever and it's far cheaper than buying fly fishing tippet. I haven't noticed a decline in my hookup rate and snap-offs are rare. I use the material for the terminal end on my tightline rigs and tie in a dropper with a double or triple surgeon's knot. Again, no issues. The visibility issue has been been beaten to death and quite honestly, I think far more important than WHAT type of material you are using is what does your drift look like? Presentation, presentation, presentation!!! Berkley Vanish 4 pound is also my main nymphing material of choice.

I do use nylon or mono for dry flies, but there again, Maxima seems to work well for me.

Your set up for fishing is exactly like mine. I also use mono for dries and I have Maxima that I use for that as well. I use blood knots instead of surgeons but to each their own in knots. Not too much of a difference really.

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, my butt sections and much of the taper is Maxima, using blood knots as well.

I use mono for 95% of my fishing. Of course, I'm heavier than most on dries. And from April on, when nymphing, its usually waiting for a hatch so I'm set up for dries as well, and just nymph like that, anticipating a fast switch to dries. I will use fluoro tippet in wintertime bottom dredging expeditions, and steelhead, and the very occasional time I'm going after toothy stuff like pike.

 

[wgmiller]

I use blood knots instead of surgeons but to each their own in knots. Not too much of a difference really.

I've been using Cory's technique for a year or so and it's really been convenient. As far as what materials I use, it has greatly simplified my time on the water and kept money in my wallet!

 

[Risechaser]

This may have been asked before, but can I use 6 lb. test good quality fluorocarbon fishing line for Euro Nymphing?

On the Euro Nymphing setup 6lb is necessary because 5X tippet is rated at over 4 lbs and sighter line is 10 lbs. so you wouldn't want the fluorocarbon as the weak link.

 

[JeffK]

As I said before, I use the Seagaur Invizx 4 lbs for my main tippet. Last fall I went to the Salmon R steelhead fishing and the hot tippet was 6 lbs Sunline FC Super sniper. Had great luck with it.

Euronymphing leaders are very personal and there are lots of designs. One side is the micro leader side with 5X leader and 6x tippet (tried this on the West Branch Delaware last fall and had great luck). Others are going back to heavier leaders lie 8 and 12 lbs. Everyone has their favorite,