Rod Action

[GreenWeenie]

Paulson,

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[Jeep_Angler]

For what it is worth...rod action is purely personal preference.

Rod action has absolutely nothing to do with line speed, loop size, casting into the wind, curve casts, casting long distances, etc, etc, etc. All of these things are directly related to the skill of the caster, not the rod. If you disagree, I'd label you as someone that would greatly benefit from some casting instruction and practice.

An argument can (and should) be made for line weight helping/hindering in some casting situations that folks attribute to rod action, like casting heavy flies, casting into the wind, etc, etc, etc. Fish an appropriate line weight to what you are fishing/conditions and all will go much better...1 weights aren't the best tool to cast a double bunny into the wind, but the opposite isn't necessarily true...a 6 weight is perfectly fine to gently drop a size 28 spinner pattern on a glassy pool on a calm day (this again comes down to casting skill).

The best thing you can do is cast a bunch of rods and get the one you believe FEELS best to you.

 

[pete41]

nice to know those of us who have been at the game for a half century don't know what they know,from experience.lol

 

[Jeep_Angler]

pete41 wrote:
nice to know those of us who have been at the game for a half century don't know what they know,from experience.lol

I can only say that just because you've done something for a relatively long time doesn't mean that you are any good at it.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

tomitrout wrote:
Of course, the real trick is to become a proficient enough caster where rod action just doesn't matter. Where you can pick up any stick, fast, slow or in between, wave it around and be able to lay out the line as you desire.

+1 I could'nt have said that any better. IMO you are 100% correct.

 

[Greenweenie1]

Jeep, rod action has nothing to do with line speed? I get what your are trying to say but you are making asinine comments that are refuted by many experts.

The Winston Tom Morgan Favorite is generally regarded as the absolute best dry fly rod yet the consensus of everyone is that rod is good only up to 45 feet. The Tom Morgan Rodsmith rods, specifically the 8.5' 5wt rod, is generally regarded as the sweetest casting 5wt out there kept yet every proficient caster who casts it claims it max's out at 50 feet.

Sorry we are not all superior proficient expert casters like you, who can obviously do wonders with any rod and put the industry experts to shame. Please volunteer to give a casting demonstration at this years jam, it would be very enlightening. If you want a competition to challenge your superior skills i will challenge you to a distance and accuracy competition. Since all rods are equal and it is the skill of the caster that makes the rod, I will use a 9' Loomis 4wt NRX to help compenste for my admittingly less than perfect technique and you will use the 8', 4wt Winston TMF because your technique is obviously flawless so you should kick my ***.

 

[Paulson]

Whats with all the tension? Everyone needs a beer...or five!

After the casting competition of course

 

[1wt]

I agree, it's a personal preference.
My fave rod is a Orvis Helios 3wt mid-flex. Some would say that a tip-flex is what makes a fast rod...... but I disagree. It's the high modulus and taper design.
Usually, I overline my fast rods to slow them down a bit. But today I was tossing dries at Yellow Breeches and this 3wt with 3wt line is spot on.
Also, I like the rod to snap at the end of a cast and the most important to me is a super light rod. The Helios is the lightest rod in the world. Super powerful and super light.
With a small 10" trout, I want the rod to bend and give me a thrill when I play the fish.
So, it's really hard to measure...... just use what you like to fish with.

 

[bikerfish]

ok, enough! just pick one that's a pretty color! :roll:

 

[tomitrout]

Sorry we are not all superior proficient expert casters like you, who can obviously do wonders with any rod and put the industry experts to shame. Please volunteer to give a casting demonstration at this years jam, it would be very enlightening. If you want a competition to challenge your superior skills i will challenge you to a distance and accuracy competition. Since all rods are equal and it is the skill of the caster that makes the rod, I will use a 9' Loomis 4wt NRX to help compenste for my admittingly less than perfect technique and you will use the 8', 4wt Winston TMF because your technique is obviously flawless so you should kick my ***.

Well, if ya'll are 'gonna take this outside', then what you really need to do is switch rods after you've each used your favorite and combine the scores for each from your little contest to determine who's the best.

 

[afishinado]

Here are two interesting vids of casting by Lasse Karlsson (one of the greatest casters on the planet)

Two rods cast at the same time, same line on both, and same line length.

Bendy rod: Berkley Grayphite 8 feet 5/6
Stiff rod: Sage TCX 690
Line Rio tournament Gold 5 weight

To make up for the difference in length, the rods where taped together so the tips where aligned.

The berkley rod is 75% glassfiber and 25% graphite, has an IP of 97 grams and a AA of 65 (so really according to CCS it's fast ;-)) and a MOI of 76

The sage is full graphite, has an IP of 167 grams, an AA of 74 and a MOI of 70


http://vimeo.com/35513634

 

[GreenWeenie]

Tomi, we don't need to switch rods because according to Jeep, in the hands of a great caster rods are completely interchangeable so he should be able to kick my butt with the Winston TMF at distances of 70-80 feet or so.

The fact is every rod is designed around a specific design point and when not at that specific design point performance is not optimum. Some rod designs are better able to flatten the performance curve across a wider range of distances but the fact is some rods are specificall designed for short range work while others are specifically designed for long range work.

 

[tomitrout]

So what's the point of your little contest then? To see which rod is the best at a certain task or to see who is the better caster? Sounded to me like you were laying down the gauntlet of who's the better caster.

If you feel you're the better, then prove it and cast with both just as your competitor will, tally up the scores and put a number on it. If he's able to compensate for the less capable rod in the range you specify, then you should also be able to if you're his equal...

 

[Foxgap239]

Holy crap, 5 Wt's at 20 paces...................

 

[GreenWeenie]

Tomi,

Jeep said rod action makes no difference in the hands of a skilled caster (I never claimed to be a skilled caster in any of my posts) so therefore he should be able to take a medium action Tom Morgan Favorite that every "expert" says max's out at about 45 feet and kick my butt at 70-80 feet where I am using a fast action NRX rod. I don't care how skilled a caster anyone is, the TMF will kick the crap out of say a Sage TCX at distances under 40 feet where the TCX will kick the crap out of the TMF at distances about 40 feet. It has nothing to do with how good a caster you are, in this example, the TMF is specifically designed for short range casting whereas the TCX is specifically designed for long range casting.

Or since you seem to have missed the whole point of the my post and seem to think this is some challenge to prove who is the better caster, forget the competition, simply let him give a demostration where he proves he can cast the TMF equally as well as the NRX at 80 feet. Not just tossing 80 feet of line but also taking accuracy into account.

The point is in the hands of a skilled caster the action of a well made rod is irrelevant provided the rods are being used within their design range. An expert caster will cast a fast action Sage Z-Axis and a medium action Winston BiiT equally well up to about 45-50 feet but beyond those distances performance of the BiiT will start to drop off dramatically and that has nothing to do with the skill of the caster, it has to do with the rod's design. It is not designed to fire off 80 feet of line accurate, period.

That's the point.

 

[troutbert]

Paulson wrote:

Again I learned with my St Croix and it has been good to me. I am still working on a lot of my techniques. I have noticed setting the line down is a bit more difficult to finesse. I have only casted a few rods in my life and my Imperial has taken up the majority of that.

You can set the line down lightly with both fast and slow action rods. And you can also "crash" your casts with both types.

You "crash" your cast when you finish your forward cast stroke with the rod tip too low. So you are driving the cast down towards the water.

The goal is to send the line flying out horizontally, parallel to the surface of the water, not directed downward.

You just have to stop the forward cast a little earlier, with the rod tip higher. Just experiment with this on the lawn, and watch the line. It should fly out horizontal to the ground, slow down, then drop.

Crashing casts by driving the line down towards the water is a very common casting error. I have a lot of experience at that.

But it's also easy to correct, once you are aware of what is happening.

 

[PennKev]

GreenWeenie wrote:
Tomi,

Jeep said rod action makes no difference in the hands of a skilled caster (I never claimed to be a skilled caster in any of my posts) so therefore he should be able to take a medium action Tom Morgan Favorite that every "expert" says max's out at about 45 feet and kick my butt at 70-80 feet where I am using a fast action NRX rod. I don't care how skilled a caster anyone is, the TMF will kick the crap out of say a Sage TCX at distances under 40 feet where the TCX will kick the crap out of the TMF at distances about 40 feet. It has nothing to do with how good a caster you are, in this example, the TMF is specifically designed for short range casting whereas the TCX is specifically designed for long range casting.

That doesn't prove that it is the action per se that makes one rod perform well at a shorter distance and the other at longer distances. It only demonstrates that one rod was designed for longer distances and the other for shorter distaces. One just happens to have a fast action and the other a medium action.

I'm geussing it has more to do with stiffness or "power" as our spin fishing friends sometimes call it. Which to us, is how a rod matches to a given line weight, or more precisely a given length of a given line weight.

Kev

 

[GreenWeenie]

PennKev, You are correct but medium action rods generally do not perform well at distances much greater than 50 feet or so - they are designed to load at shorter distances. When it comes to long range cannons, you don't see rod companies designing medium action rods, they design fast action or even ultra fast action.

So while it is true that the design of the rod dictates performance, a medium action design is best suited for short range casting - not long distance - whereas as certain fast action rods are definitely as good as medium action rods at short ranges plus with the added benefit that they can toss 80 feet of line with ease. And some fast action rods are better at shorter ranges that others while some are better at longer distances.

The whole statement by Jeep was misleading by making it sound like if you are a good caster you can take any rod and get it to perform equally well under all conditions. I, not an expert caster, and many true expert casters do not subscribe to that theory.

Here are two excerpts from the Yellowstone Anglers 2011 5wt Shootout.

Sage TCX

Performance at 25 feet – 12 points out of 20
This rod is far too stiff for a #5 line! Almost no feel whatsoever made judging the distance and making accurate casts very difficult. Accuracy was terrible. I switched over to a #6 GPX line and then it was much better, not great, but better at both 25 and 45 feet.

Performance at 70 feet – 19 points out of 20
Finally, the power of this rod makes it come alive with a lot of line in the air. Now I can cast nice tight, controlled loops and get good accuracy. Still not in the same league with the Zenith or NRX with a #5 line at this distance.


Winston BiiiX

Performance at 25 feet: 20 points out of 20
In big letters my notes read: Light and Just Right! That just about sums it up. This rod has a wonderful feel in my hand, loads perfectly, and with its very light swing weight it is a delightful rod for fishing at shorter distances. With better balance and the slightly stiffer tip, it was far more accurate than the older BIIx. If you love fishing dry flies at short to medium distances like I do, you are going to love this rod!

Performance at 70 feet: 18 points out of 20
The overall power, which loaded the rod perfectly at shorter distances is not quite enough to match the more powerful NRX, Z-Axis and the Hardy Zenith, all of which threw tighter loops and posted a more solid performance at long distance. The BIIIx required a harder double haul than the other rods at this distance and the accuracy suffered somewhat. In a direct comparison to the NRX, Z-Axis, and Zenith there was no question that they were all better at long range.

 

[pete41]

I learned my lesson the hard way.Moved to Montana in 1968 with a whole stable of great on Pennsylvania waters rods.
5,6,7 foot bamboo and a seven and 8ft glass.
Gonna teach those rubes that you didn't need derricks to fish western waters.
First stop,Yellowstone river in the paradise valley.
twenty minutes later I knew who didn't know what they were talking about.
Off to Baileys where they just laughed at my tale of woe.
Heard it many times before.
Walked out with a 9 foot fast action 8wt.

 

[tomitrout]

GW:

The point is in the hands of a skilled caster the action of a well made rod is irrelevant provided the rods are being used within their design range.

Yeah, pretty sure we've agreed to that already. And I really don't see where Jeep's post said anything to the contrary:

Jeep:

Rod action has absolutely nothing to do with line speed, loop size, casting into the wind, curve casts, casting long distances, etc, etc, etc. All of these things are directly related to the skill of the caster, not the rod. If you disagree, I'd label you as someone that would greatly benefit from some casting instruction and practice.

I made the assumption that he understands the idea that certain rods are intended for certain tasks, just saying it in his own way.

I guess you read it differently.

I'm just pointing out that if you're going to challenge someone's 'superior skills' because you're feeling put down upon or whatever, then it only makes sense to compete on a level playing field. Otherwise, you're not really proving anything other than that you can design a contest that will only reinforce your view.